AA takes off without flaps!!!

[Mamma]

Hey Mamma,
How about reading up on this, instead:

INFER is what the receiver of the message does (that's you!). The sender of the message IMPLIES. Ugh.

Ok. I am going to imply you are a tool for correcting grammer on an internet chat board and then end your statement with "Ugh." You are going to infer that I think you are a tool and maybe everyone else on this board thinks you are one too. You are then going to suck your thumb and call your mom. Have a nice day professor.

 

[glasspilot1]

Reminds me of the story of a United passenger listening to the channel of the cockpit audio . He heard the Captain say "We've got Wiskey" and turned the crew in to the FAA for drinking!

 

[Scrapdog]

[FONT=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva][FONT=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva][FONT=ARIAL,]The flight was AA 937 from MCO to MIA, an Airbus 300. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]

[FONT=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]A little background for this story. My friend was on this flight and has a private pilots license. He enjoys sitting behind the wing and watching the flaps, and other control surfaces do their thing. In addition to being a private pilot, he flies as a passenger a lot on AA. [/FONT]

[FONT=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]Today, during taxi to the runway, my friend is sitting behind the wing and watches the wing for the flap extension before take-off. Friend starts to panic because as the plane approaches the runway and turns for take-off, still no flaps. With one of the F/A's sitting in front him, he tells the FA about the flaps not being set and the FA reaches for the phone to the flight deck but then hangs it up w/o saying anything. My friend now is really in a panic as the plane begings its take-off roll. However, the A300 takes-off with plenty of runway to spare and after landing in MIA, my friend asked the pilot during deplaning why no flaps and the pilot said that sometimes we can do no flaps to save gas!!! However, the pilot did say that slats were used.[/FONT]

[FONT=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]Flight was relatively full and we are talking a widebody here. I'm also someone who enjoys sitting behind the wing and watching the flaps on take-off and landing. From everything I've read and heard, I though that flaps were a must and I'd probably have panicked a little to. [/FONT]

[FONT=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]After all, how many other people on the flight were looking out the window thinking, oh my god, there's something wrong? Is this something airlines are now doing to save gas or has it always been done? Anyone else here would have thought something was wrong? I got a good laugh out of this and thought Id share with you all!![/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

Guat - wait, don't tell me...your last name is instructordude.

 

[Laboule]

Ok. I am going to imply you are a tool for correcting grammer on an internet chat board and then end your statement with "Ugh." You are going to infer that I think you are a tool and maybe everyone else on this board thinks you are one too. You are then going to suck your thumb and call your mom. Have a nice day professor.

Nice job, Mamma...you improved your grammar today. Now if we could work on your whole sucking theme...I guess you're a sore male flight attendant.

 

[instructordude]

Guat - wait, don't tell me...your last name is instructordude.

Sorry, I'm my own problem.

 

[Mud Eagle]

Some Fighter guys, like you, are a CRM nightmare. I wish your crew good luck.

Thanks for the generalization about my CRM skills based on how I think a private pilot should conduct himself on an airliner when he believes he sees something wrong.

I didn't know that your pax were considered part of the "crew" on an airliner. Guess I have a lot to learn about CRM.

Looking at this thread (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?t=2263&page=20) it sounds to me like there is frequently an armchair pilot sitting in the back waiting to second guess your act up front.

Examples:

I was flying from RIC to ORD in an EMB 145. Upon landing a passenger said he was going to turn us into the FAA. He said he had an altimeter watch and according to it we never got above 8,000 feet. He said we definitely busted the 250 knot rule for flight below 10,000 feet because we got to ORD way too quick. I introduced him to our FAA jumpseater giving us a line check.....

Flew into Burbank the other day. The big fires nw of the city were still raging, and we flew through a portion of the smoke plume that had been blown onto the arrival. The cabin got a slight whiff of wood smoke for a few seconds, and some light chop. After we land and park at the gate, the airplane shifted onto one of the main struts a little bit (settles). While one lady was getting off, she accuses us of flying so close to the flames of the wildfire that we melted the tires, hence the settling on the ground! With an imagination like that, I assume she was in town to write screenplays...

Had a passenger tell me there was a panel missing on the wing because he could see through the wing to the runway when we landed with full flaps and the spoilers deployed

 

[skiandsurf]

Thanks for the generalization about my CRM skills based on how I think a private pilot should conduct himself on an airliner when he believes he sees something wrong.

I didn't know that your pax were considered part of the "crew" on an airliner. Guess I have a lot to learn about CRM.

We all know that Korean Airlines has a bad safety record. I heard a "story" where a UAL FA was in the back of a KAL plane and the plane caught on fire while on the ground. The Flight Crew didnt initiate the evacuation. Passengers were starting to panic, and this UAL FA initiated the evacuation herself. As the story goes, the pax all got out but the pilots died in their seats. Something about it is more shameful to get out than have to live with breaking an airplane.

Any old UAL guys on here that can confirm this "story".

 

[embpic1]

Well guys I must admit if I had been on that plane I would also have been concerned. First let me say that I have never been on an A300. I also have never been on a large transport category aircraft that used 0 degrees trailing edge flaps for takeoff. I have never even heard of such a thing until this thread. Images of the NWA MD80 crash in DTW come to mind when I think about taking off with no flaps. Also the Delta 727 crash in Dallas.

I have had 'private pilot' passengers question me after a flight about a concern they had (taking off with a tailwind etc..) and have no problem giving them a brief explanation of why.

 

[embpic1]

Thanks for the generalization about my CRM skills based on how I think a private pilot should conduct himself on an airliner when he believes he sees something wrong.

I didn't know that your pax were considered part of the "crew" on an airliner. Guess I have a lot to learn about CRM.

I would say you do have a lot to learn from this statement.

I would rather have hundreds of false alarms with reports from passengers than not get one report that could have saved our lives.

 

[Irishav8r]

Well guys I must admit. If I had been on that plane I would also have been concerned. First let me say that I have never been on an A300. I also have never been on a large transport category aircraft that used 0 degrees trailing edge flaps for takeoff. I have never even heard of such a thing until this thread. .

Grant it, I fly the A-300B-4 not the -600 AA operates, but besides having 2 guys up front rather than 3, I can tell you it is absolutely positively routine on the A-300 B-4 model. Again, even at Max takeoff weight. I do think though that guys should take it easy on the guy. To be perfectly honest, I had never heard of it either until I was in the Sim.

 

[Captain X]

Afterwards I'll buy everyone pickled eggs and booze.

Make sure it's Natty Lite or the Beast so my bowels can conjure up something nice and sulphury

 

[pedropcola]

Embpic1, I gotta disagree with you on this one. If someone sees a fire before the crew, well good on them. But thats not what happens. Those hundreds of false alarms are just that, false. Useless and a waste of time. I didn't know an A300 routinely took off with no TE flaps so I learned something today. Pax get off the jet all the time with concerns and worries, well I would just as soon not hear them (although I do take the time to allay their fears or assure them that we will look into that "shimmy dampener that need s adjusting). Not once in my recollection has any one of them been founded. Do I hope that if the stars align perfectly and the guy/gal in 17C is the only one on the jet that knows we are in trouble and the cause, well then hell yes I want him to speak up. But..... I also want to win the lottery and that probably wont happen either.

 

[flyguy67966]

It's cool that some of you guys are calling to take it easy on the guy and have some very rational reasoning for doing so. On the flip side, I know a lot of know it all "I'm a perfect pilot" PPL's who think they're hot sh*t and in reality they're just groundschool flunkies who think they've been trained to fly anything with wings, so it takes all types I guess. I'm not saying this particular PPL is like that, but I dunno, not sure I would've gone this route in this case, since I don't know anything about Airbus flap settings on take-off, but if someone who DID know something and there actually was a real risk to safety didn't say anything for fear of upsetting the crew, then yeah, he/she shoulda spoke up regardless of the captain's ego. Just Monday Morning QB'ing here. Anyway, I like the FI fightclub post! That's some funny sh*t! :laugh:

PS- I think theGuat made this all up anyway! :laugh:

PPS speaking of know-it-alls and whiners, I can understand that you flight crews probably get more complaints from the pax then compliments. When I was a student with only 9 hrs I took a flight on an F28 operated by Horizon Air. It was a night landing at PDX. The pilot greased the landing, I mean it was perfect, and I had a real appreciation for landings since I couldn't land the 152 to save my life at the time. I told the guy next to me that was a great landing. So, on my way out, one of the pilots was standing there, and I told him, "nice landing" He looked at me like I was being some kind of wiseguy while the f/a smiled and told me "buh-bye" while he stood there and said nothing, just looking at me like I was something on the bottom of his shoe. It's a bummer 'cause I'm sure you all get more bit**ing than sincere compliments. Anyway, Fly Safe!! It's a tough job, glad you're willin' to do it!:beer:

 

[AAflyer]

I thought after the NWA accident in DTW it was a requirement to have an aural warning on transport category aircraft when the flaps/ and or slats are in a TO setting. I know every transport aircraft i have flown has it.

I have taken off in 767 with a flap setting of 1 degree. In the case of the Airbus, and the 767 the LEDs are extended. Maybe our hero should have looked for that.

AA

 

[Mamma]

Nice job, Mamma...you improved your grammar today. Now if we could work on your whole sucking theme...I guess you're a sore male flight attendant.

Nice try, but I think you have me confused. I am not the sore male flight attendant you have in mind. That dude must be one of your other conquests. Are you sure you didn't take one of those Laboule balls to the head?

 

[PastV1]

MD-10 will use slats with no trailing edge flaps for T/O on some occasions also.

If the flaps are not in the T/O range (or what you set in the FMS) you get Betty yelling..."FLAPS, FLAPS"

Past....

 

[AAflyer]

MD-10 will use slats with no trailing edge flaps for T/O on some occasions also.

If the flaps are not in the T/O range (or what you set in the FMS) you get Betty yelling..."FLAPS, FLAPS"

Past....

We call her "Bitchen Betty" on the 80.....

AA

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Embpic1, I gotta disagree with you on this one. If someone sees a fire before the crew, well good on them. But thats not what happens. Those hundreds of false alarms are just that, false. Useless and a waste of time. I didn't know an A300 routinely took off with no TE flaps so I learned something today. Pax get off the jet all the time with concerns and worries, well I would just as soon not hear them (although I do take the time to allay their fears or assure them that we will look into that "shimmy dampener that need s adjusting). Not once in my recollection has any one of them been founded. Do I hope that if the stars align perfectly and the guy/gal in 17C is the only one on the jet that knows we are in trouble and the cause, well then hell yes I want him to speak up. But..... I also want to win the lottery and that probably wont happen either.

I'm with pedro and mud eagle on this one. The chance that some numb-nuts with 50 hrs and a private ticket is going to save the day is remote at best. The chance that the same numb-nuts, with just enough knowledge to be persuasive to a layman, will unduly panic passengers is nearly a certainty.

BBB

 

[Borat Sagdiyev]

I thought after the NWA accident in DTW it was a requirement to have an aural warning on transport category aircraft when the flaps/ and or slats are in a TO setting. I know every transport aircraft i have flown has it.

I have taken off in 767 with a flap setting of 1 degree. In the case of the Airbus, and the 767 the LEDs are extended. Maybe our hero should have looked for that.

AA

Jagshemash,

On Detoilet Maddog crash flew by Ninja with Attitudes, the takeoff config warning was installed but did not work but investigators not know reason and never figure it out.

Borat

 

[AAflyer]

I'm with pedro and mud eagle on this one. The chance that some numb-nuts with 50 hrs and a private ticket is going to save the day is remote at best. The chance that the same numb-nuts, with just enough knowledge to be persuasive to a layman, will unduly panic passengers is nearly a certainty.

BBB

Bingo!

AA

 

[TurboS7]

DAL 727 out of Dallas and NWA DC-9 out of DTW. Wonder what would have happened if our private pilot would have spoken up and the FA's called the flight deck. Heck, the pilots are all ex-military fighter jocks, they need no help from anyone.

 

[Mamma]

DAL 727 out of Dallas and NWA DC-9 out of DTW. Wonder what would have happened if our private pilot would have spoken up and the FA's called the flight deck. Heck, the pilots are all ex-military fighter jocks, they need no help from anyone.

Your ending comment is out of line for anyone in our profession. Sounds like you have a big chip on your shoulder that you should deal with. Aside of that, the DC-9 allows for take-offs with zero flaps at times. I have done them on hot days. Should I announce it to the entire cabin next time I do one to alleviate any fears? Or should I just wait for the FA to call me to see if I know what I am doing? Where does it all end?

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Your ending comment is out of line for anyone in our profession. Sounds like you have a big chip on your shoulder that you should deal with. Aside of that, the DC-9 allows for take-offs with zero flaps at times. I have done them on hot days. Should I announce it to the entire cabin next time I do one to alleviate any fears? Or should I just wait for the FA to call me to see if I know what I am doing? Where does it all end?

EXACTLY! And BTW... amazing how that fighter guy is alive after perhaps thousands of hours of flight time (thousands of flights) without any 50 hr private pilot's help! What some term arrogance and poor CRM others term experience and confidence. When inexperienced and unconfident aviators are introduced to experienced and confident pilots, the former always scream arrogance and poor CRM skills. It's laughable.

BBB

 

[A350]

The good old F100 that AA and USAir used to operate could take off without trailing edge flaps....and it didn't have slats either.....

This caused at least a few USAir pilots to have near heart failure while deadheading.

A350

 

[AAflyer]

The good old F100 that AA and USAir used to operate could take off without trailing edge flaps....and it didn't have slats either.....

This caused at least a few USAir pilots to have near heart failure while deadheading.

A350

I was mentioning this the other day when were talking about private pilot passengers. I was jumpseating on a Usairways F100. A passenger started yelling the pilot didn't have his slats out ( his term not, mine). Before I could politely say something (he was 4 rows up over the wing) the FA was there telling him to settle down, that the F100 doesn't have slats.. Out hero was very silent the rest of the flight.

AA

 

[Indy319FA]

I'm with pedro and mud eagle on this one. The chance that some numb-nuts with 50 hrs and a private ticket is going to save the day is remote at best. The chance that the same numb-nuts, with just enough knowledge to be persuasive to a layman, will unduly panic passengers is nearly a certainty.

BBB

I had a private pilot in the back of a Dojet that almost caused a panic. We were tail heavy, and had to move people to the front. She thought because I moved skinny people, and not the 300 lb behemoths, that the plane was going to crash. Not a problem if she had asked discreetly instead of shouting that the plane was going to crash just like the one in Charlotte. Then she shouted "I'm a pilot, so I know what I'm talking about." Naturally people are starting to panic, and I was able to get them calmed down by explaining there were 2 very qualified pilots up front, and that I was a flight instructor as well, and there was nothing wrong with the aircraft. After getting everyone calmed down, I found out this lady was a private pilot who had only had her license for 2 weeks. After the Captain explained standard weights to her, and that she needed to learn some discretion, we allowed her to continue to CVG with the understanding that she needed to take her seat and leave the flying to the professionals. We finally left a half hour late (made me miss my commute home) minus one passenger who was so spooked he decided to catch a later flight............

The screwy stuff always happens on the last leg.........

 

[DrewBlows]

Jagshemash,

On Detoilet Maddog crash flew by Ninja with Attitudes, the takeoff config warning was installed but did not work but investigators not know reason and never figure it out.

Borat

An NWA Airbus Driver told me that it was standard procedure at that time to pull the "T/O Config" circuit breaker on taxi out. Apparently, it routinely gave false alarms at normal power settings while taxiing (or powering back maybe?, I didn't get the details). I don't know that this is what happened, but he seemed pretty convinced that it was.

On another note, I wonder what Al Haynes would think of this thread?

 

[skiandsurf]

On another note, I wonder what Al Haynes would think of this thread?

Or how about the Comair crash in Lexington, with the Airtran jumpseater in the back. Too bad he didnt start yelling for the abort. ( but really, how was he to know?).

 

[instructordude]

You guys are almost all misssing the point. It's good he spoke up. Who knows he could have saved the day. He didn't but you never know. Kudos for speaking up!

I wouldn't rip on a guy with only a private. He's got some experience and it might just help.

 

[Purpled]

On another note, I wonder what Al Haynes would think of this thread?

Is this the aviation version of WWJD...WWAHT?