AA Pilots BOD turns down Last Best Offer from AMR!

[St. Nic]

Wow, Delta guys are sellouts for not holding the line on RJs but AA guys are sellouts for trying to preserve as much of their contract as possible. Maybe it's easy for me to say because I am on the outside of this, but I think if I were at American I would fight like hell to preserve my contract, and then if that didn't work I can always go to work at JetBlue, VA, or Allegiant for no pay and no benefits if AA fails...which is not very likely.

The problem with giving in, is that no matter how much you give, the company is going to ask for and the judge is going to give them more. If you offer 10% concessions then the judge is going to look at 12 or 13% as only 2 or 3% more than you have already agreed to give.

Good luck...What will be interesting to me will be what APA will expect in an SLI with USAir, considering APA's reputation when it comes to SLI. Being stapled to the bottom of a profitable carrier is better than being on the street right? We'll see what APA's reaction to that argument is now that the shoe is shaping up to be on the other foot.

The SLI will be date of hire with fences- no problems with senile arbiTRAITORs.
You can count on it

 

[Ex737Driver]

The SLI will be date of hire with fences- no problems with senile arbiTRAITORs.
You can count on it

Cause it's been working so well for you guys for almost a decade now? Keep that plan. Your 12 year CA's will be making what DAL/CAL new hires make in a few years.

 

[jmreii]

To compete against state sponsored airlines who have oil money supporting their business model one needs a level playing field and that would mean government introduction of fees or levies on those arab airlines who have an unfair advantage. Ruining a company, ruining the job market, and greed are not a way to "compete". The likes of Emirates will still have an advantage in new aircraft (financed by their government), service, and fuel costs after our industry is destroyed. The only difference is there will be no jobs in our industry, no lift to cities, which will only make the public want to open up our markets to foreign airlines with foreign pilots to service those cities. Your precious Delta is already abandoning small markets towns, whats to say that small cities are not next? ALPA (DALPA) and every other union will have lost all its power in protecting cabotage. Unlikely? Just wait and see what happens if the lift decreases to such a degree your 3 mega carriers scenario happens.

Any government can finance any operation they want but customer service is a different animal altogether. Throwing money at problems will not necessarily fix those problems.

 

[Mamma]

The SLI will be date of hire with fences- no problems with senile arbiTRAITORs.
You can count on it

Is that what the courts have said? Until then, enjoy the $125/hr Airbus captain rates that drag all of us down. I can't believe USAPA is still around with the rates you guys are at.

 

[Citjok]

Another thread hijacked.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

AMR has a revenue problem. They lose money in LAX, DFW, ORD, LGA. Break even in MIA and make money in JFK. AA's not big enough to recapture the flying we need to in order to survive. DAL and UCAL offer better options and service for the premium passengers. All AMR wants to do is codeshare/outsource everything is can to the lowest bidder. That'll win back the premimum pax for sure! NOT!

Many moving parts here. For example, the USAir deal increases the OneWorld alliance (BA and Willie Walsh) from 15 to 25% of the alliance share. Attractive for them. ToHo and crew get large payouts for exiting BK and also a merger. He's just looking for the money. He's not an airline guy in the least. He jumped to AT&T, made a pile there, and came back to AMR in 2006 when he got a $7m PUP bonus for just 7 months work. Parker, Horton and Arpey all worked in the same AMR cube farm 1987. Parker is no saint but has done a good good with USAir on the business side of the equation.

The APA CLA with USAir is weighed heavily in Parker's favor with many references to binding arbitration which are bad words. In the end, AA has to generate revenue or die off in a few years. Neither path is a sure thing won't be fun for those of us involved.

Unit

 

[AMRCostUnit]

We got a one week extension yesterday. The BOD didn't vote it down necessarily on the merits but due to there not being any clear contractual language. I'm sure they will provide greater detail because we won't do another 2003 deal where we voted on an outline and the details turned out very different. If approved by the BOD, there will have to some time to road show it before the membership vote. There isn't much to vote for in the preliminary data.

 

[pave driver]

Has anyone else heard of Parker applying for a separate America West certificate? It appears to me he doesn't want past labor problems affecting this merger.

 

[FlyinGuy]

I hope you AA guys stand your ground. I think it was a bold move (the right move) to vote down this agreement. This really puts the pressure on AMR management to actually come up with a workable plan. If they go crying to the judge, I think the chances of the LCC/AA merger increase. I was hoping that you guys could pull this out and be a stand alone carrier, but the way the domino's are falling that probably will not be a real option. Best of luck to you all.

St Nic,
My guess is the arbitrator (because it will go to arby) will implement the Nic then figure out how to mix the AA/LCC groups.

 

[St. Nic]

I hope you AA guys stand your ground. I think it was a bold move (the right move) to vote down this agreement. This really puts the pressure on AMR management to actually come up with a workable plan. If they go crying to the judge, I think the chances of the LCC/AA merger increase. I was hoping that you guys could pull this out and be a stand alone carrier, but the way the domino's are falling that probably will not be a real option. Best of luck to you all.

St Nic,
My guess is the arbitrator (because it will go to arby) will implement the Nic then figure out how to mix the AA/LCC groups.

Nic is not binding because it was an internal (flawed) ALPA process. We we seperate opps now so the SLI will be a 3 way. Parker said so himself! The Nic is DOA

 

[IBNAV8R]

Nic is not binding because it was an internal (flawed) ALPA process. We we seperate opps now so the SLI will be a 3 way. Parker said so himself! The Nic is DOA

I really have no dog in this fight but it doesn't matter who arbitrated the SLI. It's a freedom-of-contract issue. Both sides signed the contract - agreeing to BINDING arbitration.

It doesn't matter in the least who or what decides the SLI - nor does his/her affiliation. Whether it was a mediator with a bazillion airline cases under his belt, Daffy Duck, an arm wrestling match, poker game, or coin toss, you agreed to the method beforehand. You had a contract.

Now, you think a new mediator is going to just ignore this contract and overlook the previous BINDING arbitration - to which you already agreed?

You guys may have gotten the short end but a contract is a contract. Deal with it.

 

[dollacrackho]

If apa wants to merge with airways why are they working so hard to get a contract with amr management?

 

[JetMonkey]

If apa wants to merge with airways why are they working so hard to get a contract with amr management?

Would you be in a hurry to have your paycheck slashed?

 

[AMRCostUnit]

If apa wants to merge with airways why are they working so hard to get a contract with amr management?

Good question...it was explained to us as a means to an end. A deal with AMR is not an endorsement of their operation. It keeps us on the inside with respect to the creditors committee where we have some influence. With a 13.5% stake in the new company (if voted up) the pilots would have the largest piece. Rough numbers would be an average of $100K per pilot. We can keep up the pressure to do the USAir deal on the rest of the committee. If we vote it down, then we would most likely be excused from the table as our claim would be voided. The joys of BK.

That being said, the deal on the table is far from pretty (locking in 319 rates for a long, long time (10 years) at way less than industry average) and the 1113 is even less pretty. People just fed up and angry out on the line. Don't much care anymore. Last place for on time, cancellations and diverts for April. Rumors of several guys a day just quitting...they've had enough looking at their 3rd furlough in some 6 years. It just ain't worth being an AA pilot anymore. Really sad.

58 retired 1 June and it's estimated that over 100 will go on 1 July. They just cut the schedule. Full planes in the summer travel season and they just cancel flights. Great management there...all the pilot's fault.

The only way to stop the slide is to park the brakes and go home. It would be too late at that point I think...don't know what it would take to bring us back. And I'm not talking a strike here, just a mass resignation of 500 or so guys on the schedule for the day and we'd be done...Eastern II

Unit

 

[Flyby1206]

AMR has a revenue problem. They lose money in LAX, DFW, ORD, LGA. Break even in MIA and make money in JFK. AA's not big enough to recapture the flying we need to in order to survive. DAL and UCAL offer better options and service for the premium passengers. All AMR wants to do is codeshare/outsource everything is can to the lowest bidder. That'll win back the premimum pax for sure! NOT!

I completely agree that AA has a revenue problem, and DAL has the economy of scale to capture that premium/business traveller, but their scope clause far surpasses anything AA has even proposed to APA. Do you want to be like DAL if it means giving up 100-200 70+ seat RJs? Unfortunately, I think that is what it will take to really gain size to win back those customers.

Many moving parts here. For example, the USAir deal increases the OneWorld alliance (BA and Willie Walsh) from 15 to 25% of the alliance share. Attractive for them. ToHo and crew get large payouts for exiting BK and also a merger. He's just looking for the money. He's not an airline guy in the least. He jumped to AT&T, made a pile there, and came back to AMR in 2006 when he got a $7m PUP bonus for just 7 months work. Parker, Horton and Arpey all worked in the same AMR cube farm 1987. Parker is no saint but has done a good good with USAir on the business side of the equation.

The APA CLA with USAir is weighed heavily in Parker's favor with many references to binding arbitration which are bad words. In the end, AA has to generate revenue or die off in a few years. Neither path is a sure thing won't be fun for those of us involved.

Unit

Horton is no doubt just a hatchet man. Look at his work at AT&T and see the role he plays now. Same thing. Someone else will no doubt come in to run the company when BK is over. Parker has done OK with US, but I think any of us could do the same with a divided labor group that is operating under bankruptcy wages far below any competitors. I dont believe in his magical powers as some like to think he has.

 

[wms]

The market needs fewer legacies, and this is the way to do it. 3 mega carriers, a few LCCs will be able to fight better against the Emirates and Singapore Airlines of the World. The US Legacies need to make consistent profits to be able to order bigger planes to protect the US market and go out and fight for others.


Bye Bye---General Lee

What they really need is a better product. Pax services, inflight and value is what the foreign carriers have that us carriers won't have until the old stews are gone.

 

[Golden Falcon]

until the old stews are gone....

Yup you're right..."fat" chance of that ever happening, if the outcome of the merger is USAPA disappearing, then that might be worth it, APA should make that a condition of the merger...

 

[SIG600]

What they really need is a better product. Pax services, inflight and value is what the foreign carriers have that us carriers won't have until the old stews are gone.

Level the playing field by cutting off gov't money for those foreign carriers first.

Oh, and work rules. Think a US carrier would ever get away with firing a flight attendant for getting pregnant?

 

[JumpersAway]

If USAirways ties the knot with American, I'm sure USAPA will be gone, shearly on membership votes alone. APA will undoubtedly run the show, as their numbers are far superior to USAPA's membership. I don't think any negotiating capital needs to be wasted here, or any concern should be given to this, what so ever.

I think that an American merger with USAirways/AmWest would be a "System Reset" to the issues that plague the current USAirways/AmWest seniority SNAFU. Take all three groups, renegotiate an integrated seniority list (something that WILL be done) and pour the pilots into one unified company. I think we're approaching a point where there will be enough attrition to keep everyone happy, so upgrades and company movement will finally break loose. The question is, how many USAirways/AmWest pilot's will refuse to look beyond the past in order to capture the opportunities of the future?

 

[Schwanker]

The SLI will be date of hire with fences- no problems with senile arbiTRAITORs.
You can count on it

Just curious,
Would an AMR 2001 hire with 3 months on property (still furloughed) be blended with those hired in 2001 or 3 months ago in your scenario?