AA Pilots BOD turns down Last Best Offer from AMR!

[AMRCostUnit]

Board of Director vote was 11 against and 5 for. No details released as of yet. Going to be interesting between now and Friday. 11th Hour deal? Complete contract abrogation by the judge? FA's and Mech's face abrogation too. High stakes poker...

Unit

 

[redflyer65]

Three days to get a deal from three differenct groups? Not sure that's gonna work. 24/7 negotiation maybe.

 

[vixin]

Wow a BOD that can vote NO on something? I thought BOD's did nothing but approve it 19/0 and pass it to the membership.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

They/we have negotiated last week with another Federal Judge acting as mediator. No deals were struck. All three balls are in the judges court now. This has never happened where a consensual deal was not reached. On Friday, the judge could toss out all three contracts and let AMR implement the 1113 term sheet and risk an Eastern II style meltdown. Or the company could come in with a better offer. Or the judge could extend his ruling and force us back to the table.

There will be lots of action in the next couple of days. Company wants a deal because they need a contract in place to exit BK, financing etc. We have already had a vote of No Confidence in ToHo and his minions. We want the creditors committee to remove reorganization right from AMR to USAir. A stand alone AA will fail and destabilize the industry once again by dumping cheap seats with the Cornerstone (Tombstone) plan.

Unit

 

[redflyer65]

A stand alone AA will fail and destabilize the industry once again by dumping cheap seats with the Cornerstone (Tombstone) plan.

Unit

I think you nailed it with this one statement. Good luck AMRCost.

 

[Flyby1206]

We want the creditors committee to remove reorganization right from AMR to USAir. A stand alone AA will fail and destabilize the industry once again by dumping cheap seats with the Cornerstone (Tombstone) plan.

Unit

Youve been reading too many analyst reports, but dont worry... if AA wont add capacity then jetblue will.

AA/US merger would be GREAT for UAL and DAL, because it would seriously chop capacity from PHL/PHX and even CLT would suffer. That means more pricing power, but less mainline jobs and no growth. You thought the past decade at AA was stagnant, wait til you merge with US.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Remember, the mediators decision is never binding unless you like what he's done.

 

[jonjuan]

Wow a BOD that can vote NO on something? I thought BOD's did nothing but approve it 19/0 and pass it to the membership.

Didn't the AT mec sack up and vote something down?

 

[AMRCostUnit]

Yeah, I've be reading a lot of stuff. From the analysis it's logical that a AA/USAir merge has potential. The size of UCal and DAL marginalizes us independently, but figures can lie and liars figure. The devil is always in the details. We are facing a "bad or worse" decision on our side of the fence as AA stand alone plan is the "worse" choice for sure.

Management has been trying to sell us by broadcasting the AA stand alone will bring "20% growth" in AA flying. When pressed, they publicly admitted that only 7% of that growth is AA flying. The rest is going to code share with the loss of Scope. Why would we support that?

Unit

 

[vixin]

I was being sarcastic about SWAPA. Thats all our union does. Passes crap 19/0, sells it as "the best we can do", then when the vote doesnt look so good, they go with plan B and come back with just a little more.

 

[St. Nic]

Remember, the mediators decision is never binding unless you like what he's done.

Exactly!

 

[Flyby1206]

Yeah, I've be reading a lot of stuff. From the analysis it's logical that a AA/USAir merge has potential. The size of UCal and DAL marginalizes us independently, but figures can lie and liars figure. The devil is always in the details. We are facing a "bad or worse" decision on our side of the fence as AA stand alone plan is the "worse" choice for sure.

Management has been trying to sell us by broadcasting the AA stand alone will bring "20% growth" in AA flying. When pressed, they publicly admitted that only 7% of that growth is AA flying. The rest is going to code share with the loss of Scope. Why would we support that?

Unit

No doubt AA is in a tight spot. I guess I question whether Parker's plan will really be any better than the standalone plan. In my opinion they are both turd-burgers, except one is promising higher pay.

US/AA will add size, but is it in the right areas? Does AA desperately need more feed from Salisbury, MD and random third tier east coast cities?

I'm not privy to the CLA from Parker, but what is the deal with scope on his plan? Will he reign in the 88-seat unlimited that is currently in place at US?

 

[spacecadet1]

Hearing that Delta and SW are looking at taking the 73's in the fire sale. Don't know about the pilots, but somebody will have to fly them.

 

[xjhawk]

I like how these AA guys who see $$$$$$$$$$ and the deal offered by US are willing to sell out their own company. Do you really think the management at US Airways is any better than what you have now? Do you really think jobs will be saved with a merger with a company that cannot get its own house in order? I am an outsider looking in-but I think its just a cop out to say that AA cannot stand alone on its own. In that case.... then a start up like jet blue will not work, nor Virgin.... or any other example. I think this is just another case of the senior guys willing to sell out everyone else to preserve their bottom line.

 

[General Lee]

Exactly!

Good try. You had BINDING ARBITRATION. And, it will eventually stand.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

Good try. You had BINDING ARBITRATION. And, it will eventually stand.


Bye Bye---General Lee

ALPA is planning to make a run at AA and LCC. Eventually ALPA will wake up. :lol:

 

[General Lee]

I like how these AA guys who see $$$$$$$$$$ and the deal offered by US are willing to sell out their own company. Do you really think the management at US Airways is any better than what you have now? Do you really think jobs will be saved with a merger with a company that cannot get its own house in order? I am an outsider looking in-but I think its just a cop out to say that AA cannot stand alone on its own. In that case.... then a start up like jet blue will not work, nor Virgin.... or any other example. I think this is just another case of the senior guys willing to sell out everyone else to preserve their bottom line.

The market needs fewer legacies, and this is the way to do it. 3 mega carriers, a few LCCs will be able to fight better against the Emirates and Singapore Airlines of the World. The US Legacies need to make consistent profits to be able to order bigger planes to protect the US market and go out and fight for others.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

Remember, the mediator's decision is never binding unless you like what he's done.

You are correct. Mediators do not have any authority, and neither do arbitrators involved in internal disputes of defunct unions. :lol:

 

[xjhawk]

The market needs fewer legacies, and this is the way to do it. 3 mega carriers, a few LCCs will be able to fight better against the Emirates and Singapore Airlines of the World. The US Legacies need to make consistent profits to be able to order bigger planes to protect the US market and go out and fight for others.


Bye Bye---General Lee

To compete against state sponsored airlines who have oil money supporting their business model one needs a level playing field and that would mean government introduction of fees or levies on those arab airlines who have an unfair advantage. Ruining a company, ruining the job market, and greed are not a way to "compete". The likes of Emirates will still have an advantage in new aircraft (financed by their government), service, and fuel costs after our industry is destroyed. The only difference is there will be no jobs in our industry, no lift to cities, which will only make the public want to open up our markets to foreign airlines with foreign pilots to service those cities. Your precious Delta is already abandoning small markets towns, whats to say that small cities are not next? ALPA (DALPA) and every other union will have lost all its power in protecting cabotage. Unlikely? Just wait and see what happens if the lift decreases to such a degree your 3 mega carriers scenario happens.

 

[igneousy2]

I like how these AA guys who see $$$$$$$$$$ and the deal offered by US are willing to sell out their own company. Do you really think the management at US Airways is any better than what you have now? Do you really think jobs will be saved with a merger with a company that cannot get its own house in order? I am an outsider looking in-but I think its just a cop out to say that AA cannot stand alone on its own. In that case.... then a start up like jet blue will not work, nor Virgin.... or any other example. I think this is just another case of the senior guys willing to sell out everyone else to preserve their bottom line.

Wow, Delta guys are sellouts for not holding the line on RJs but AA guys are sellouts for trying to preserve as much of their contract as possible. Maybe it's easy for me to say because I am on the outside of this, but I think if I were at American I would fight like hell to preserve my contract, and then if that didn't work I can always go to work at JetBlue, VA, or Allegiant for no pay and no benefits if AA fails...which is not very likely.

The problem with giving in, is that no matter how much you give, the company is going to ask for and the judge is going to give them more. If you offer 10% concessions then the judge is going to look at 12 or 13% as only 2 or 3% more than you have already agreed to give.

Good luck...What will be interesting to me will be what APA will expect in an SLI with USAir, considering APA's reputation when it comes to SLI. Being stapled to the bottom of a profitable carrier is better than being on the street right? We'll see what APA's reaction to that argument is now that the shoe is shaping up to be on the other foot.

 

[St. Nic]

Wow, Delta guys are sellouts for not holding the line on RJs but AA guys are sellouts for trying to preserve as much of their contract as possible. Maybe it's easy for me to say because I am on the outside of this, but I think if I were at American I would fight like hell to preserve my contract, and then if that didn't work I can always go to work at JetBlue, VA, or Allegiant for no pay and no benefits if AA fails...which is not very likely.

The problem with giving in, is that no matter how much you give, the company is going to ask for and the judge is going to give them more. If you offer 10% concessions then the judge is going to look at 12 or 13% as only 2 or 3% more than you have already agreed to give.

Good luck...What will be interesting to me will be what APA will expect in an SLI with USAir, considering APA's reputation when it comes to SLI. Being stapled to the bottom of a profitable carrier is better than being on the street right? We'll see what APA's reaction to that argument is now that the shoe is shaping up to be on the other foot.

The SLI will be date of hire with fences- no problems with senile arbiTRAITORs.
You can count on it

 

[Ex737Driver]

The SLI will be date of hire with fences- no problems with senile arbiTRAITORs.
You can count on it

Cause it's been working so well for you guys for almost a decade now? Keep that plan. Your 12 year CA's will be making what DAL/CAL new hires make in a few years.

 

[jmreii]

To compete against state sponsored airlines who have oil money supporting their business model one needs a level playing field and that would mean government introduction of fees or levies on those arab airlines who have an unfair advantage. Ruining a company, ruining the job market, and greed are not a way to "compete". The likes of Emirates will still have an advantage in new aircraft (financed by their government), service, and fuel costs after our industry is destroyed. The only difference is there will be no jobs in our industry, no lift to cities, which will only make the public want to open up our markets to foreign airlines with foreign pilots to service those cities. Your precious Delta is already abandoning small markets towns, whats to say that small cities are not next? ALPA (DALPA) and every other union will have lost all its power in protecting cabotage. Unlikely? Just wait and see what happens if the lift decreases to such a degree your 3 mega carriers scenario happens.

Any government can finance any operation they want but customer service is a different animal altogether. Throwing money at problems will not necessarily fix those problems.

 

[Mamma]

The SLI will be date of hire with fences- no problems with senile arbiTRAITORs.
You can count on it

Is that what the courts have said? Until then, enjoy the $125/hr Airbus captain rates that drag all of us down. I can't believe USAPA is still around with the rates you guys are at.

 

[Citjok]

Another thread hijacked.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

AMR has a revenue problem. They lose money in LAX, DFW, ORD, LGA. Break even in MIA and make money in JFK. AA's not big enough to recapture the flying we need to in order to survive. DAL and UCAL offer better options and service for the premium passengers. All AMR wants to do is codeshare/outsource everything is can to the lowest bidder. That'll win back the premimum pax for sure! NOT!

Many moving parts here. For example, the USAir deal increases the OneWorld alliance (BA and Willie Walsh) from 15 to 25% of the alliance share. Attractive for them. ToHo and crew get large payouts for exiting BK and also a merger. He's just looking for the money. He's not an airline guy in the least. He jumped to AT&T, made a pile there, and came back to AMR in 2006 when he got a $7m PUP bonus for just 7 months work. Parker, Horton and Arpey all worked in the same AMR cube farm 1987. Parker is no saint but has done a good good with USAir on the business side of the equation.

The APA CLA with USAir is weighed heavily in Parker's favor with many references to binding arbitration which are bad words. In the end, AA has to generate revenue or die off in a few years. Neither path is a sure thing won't be fun for those of us involved.

Unit

 

[AMRCostUnit]

We got a one week extension yesterday. The BOD didn't vote it down necessarily on the merits but due to there not being any clear contractual language. I'm sure they will provide greater detail because we won't do another 2003 deal where we voted on an outline and the details turned out very different. If approved by the BOD, there will have to some time to road show it before the membership vote. There isn't much to vote for in the preliminary data.

 

[pave driver]

Has anyone else heard of Parker applying for a separate America West certificate? It appears to me he doesn't want past labor problems affecting this merger.

 

[FlyinGuy]

I hope you AA guys stand your ground. I think it was a bold move (the right move) to vote down this agreement. This really puts the pressure on AMR management to actually come up with a workable plan. If they go crying to the judge, I think the chances of the LCC/AA merger increase. I was hoping that you guys could pull this out and be a stand alone carrier, but the way the domino's are falling that probably will not be a real option. Best of luck to you all.

St Nic,
My guess is the arbitrator (because it will go to arby) will implement the Nic then figure out how to mix the AA/LCC groups.

 

[St. Nic]

I hope you AA guys stand your ground. I think it was a bold move (the right move) to vote down this agreement. This really puts the pressure on AMR management to actually come up with a workable plan. If they go crying to the judge, I think the chances of the LCC/AA merger increase. I was hoping that you guys could pull this out and be a stand alone carrier, but the way the domino's are falling that probably will not be a real option. Best of luck to you all.

St Nic,
My guess is the arbitrator (because it will go to arby) will implement the Nic then figure out how to mix the AA/LCC groups.

Nic is not binding because it was an internal (flawed) ALPA process. We we seperate opps now so the SLI will be a 3 way. Parker said so himself! The Nic is DOA