AA now wants costs cuts

[buckeyes95]

I think employees at Home Depot make more than pilots already. I agree, we need a unified stand, not just DAL. In a perfect world, All airline employees would go on strike! That would draw some attention and send the message to stop attacking labor. I guarentee you that if everyone walked out, the attack on our livelyhood would end. Has management ever once considered raising the price of a ticket instead of cutting labor costs. ALPA should act for the good of all pilots, and not just the pilots at one airline. If UAL and USAir, etc didn't take paycuts, the snowball would've never started rolling.

 

[81Horse]

Like Big Slick pointed out, most high time guy's at a major are doing pretty well.

Define "pretty well." How old are you? How would you like to see your income reduced 50 percent, and be staring down the barrel at the loss of your job and your pension -- at 50 or 55?

Do you think senior pilots have never been on furlough? Many have, and some more than once. It's a lay-off, man -- the company giveth, and the company taketh away. I ask again: what is it you expect more senior (i.e., unfurloughed) pilots to do for you?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's B.S. for one airline to stand up for the others such as Delta might do if their contract is thrown out and they strike. In this case all ALPA pilots should strike and the message would definately be heard, STOP ATTACKING LABOR!

As long as there are guys who think an SOS or all ALPA pilots should strike, we are never going to be effective.

Get educated. Get informed. Get involved.

 

[RickKC-135]

81 Horse let's look at a few examples. Back in 01-04 when all this started you had SW pilots voluntarily reducing the flying hours so they would not have to furlough. At roughly the same time you had DAL with the battle cry Full Pay To The Last Day. They obviously didn't care who got furloughed. Now look at the situation. Another example, look how many pilot groups have agreed to an increase in pension pay which is offset by a wage concession i.e NW. Then asked to take more concessions or the company will liquidate or lose thier pensions in BK. Thus the pilots are forced to "protect" their pensions. Had they stuck to their guns in the first place, they wouldn't be in this position. Another example, look at UPS's first year pay 26K. Be real, who can live on that. Why haven't they fixed this years ago. Because nobody beyond 2 years cares. Bottom line is, look at it as a career with sound growth and movement for everyone not just how it affects me. Trust me, I know this is too much to ask because it is ultimately about number one, but there are areas which can be addressed if you remember what it was like when you were in the "bad shoes".

 

[81Horse]

... but there are areas which can be addressed if you remember what it was like when you were in the "bad shoes".

But, Rick, all the shoes are bad right now at the legacies. Truly, it's at the point where pilots are thinking about "number one" (that is, their own families), because they have to. It's a farkin' lifeboat mentality, and no way around it.

However. That said, there are still many, many pilots at NW and DL right now who say they are willing to hold the line, no matter what. Time will tell.

 

[D'Angelo]

I think employees at Home Depot make more than pilots already. I agree, we need a unified stand, not just DAL. In a perfect world, All airline employees would go on strike! That would draw some attention and send the message to stop attacking labor. I guarentee you that if everyone walked out, the attack on our livelyhood would end. Has management ever once considered raising the price of a ticket instead of cutting labor costs. ALPA should act for the good of all pilots, and not just the pilots at one airline. If UAL and USAir, etc didn't take paycuts, the snowball would've never started rolling.

Home depot employees make more than most airline pilots? please show me the numbers to back this up. You are up for best oscar in a dramatic role.

 

[737 Pylt]

Home depot employees make more than most airline pilots? please show me the numbers to back this up. You are up for best oscar in a dramatic role.

And you took the golden globe in "village idiot" award!
737

 

[D'Angelo]

Im just saying taking the absolute worst case scenario you average out the pay on the lowest 737 payscale. Working only the guarantee of 65 hrs/month you still make around 63,000 per year at delta. Show me how you can make that just walking into home depot. Wheres the numbers? Oh thats right pilots truly are drama queens

 

[737 Pylt]

Im just saying taking the absolute worst case scenario you average out the pay on the lowest 737 payscale. Working only the guarantee of 65 hrs/month you still make around 63,000 per year at delta. Show me how you can make that just walking into home depot. Wheres the numbers? Oh thats right pilots truly are drama queens

I don't know why I'm even acknowledging this idiot with a response....Here goes dumba$$.
Ever hear the term, you're worth what you negotiate?? Probably not. Ao you think its alright for management to just dip into your pocketbook and reward themselves with golden parachutes and bonuses while the company continues to bleed money! Which tells me either you're that stupid and beyond comprehension, or just a management puke in disguise. Now go and pick up some open time and have the captain baby sit your useless a$$!
737

 

[Gofish]

The law of supply and demand would dictate that wages and benefits should remain the same or go up upon consideration of the looming pilot shortage.

No...I am not Kit Darby.

 

[Occam's Razor]

History has shown that you can not shrink an airline into profitability. Further cutting wages and concessions will never save an airline. Good luck to all aviators at AA.

Other than CAL in 1991 and NWA in 1993, you mean?

Both shrank and later went on to record profits.

Apparently, there is some sort of "cycle" to the economy and our industry.

 

[Gorilla]

Us: Raise The ^%*($#&#@ Fares Already!!!!!

MGT: But... But.. we can't!! We'll LOSE MARKET SHARE! Waaaahhhh.

Me: Man I'm sick of this merry-go-round.

 

[Mugs]

And AA was the most recent spoiler in a somewhat agressive ticket price increase attempt by UAL. A day later, AA talks about further labor cost cuts.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

I think this cycle of cost cutting is a revolving door. Until someone stands up to mgmt to stop it, it will keep going round and round between airlines. GL, you guys have a chance to stop this thing and I hope you do. Good luck.

I could not agree more. The Delta pilots, while much maligned on these boards, have been the ones to hold up the industry. Back in 2000, it was they who finally created a realistic wage for the 767-400 and the 777. United then springboarded off of that, and Delta springboarded back with their contract.

Meanwhile, SWA pilots drug the industry down for years, the RJDC freaks decided that they had not the leverage to get a piece of the pie. So they sued for it. JBlu pilots came into being. Even the top pay in the industry was lower than pay back in the 70s adjusted for inflation.

Then the AA guys caved under the threat of ch11, the USAir guys caved and the next day went to ch11, came out and went ch11 again. Next was United, caved. The Delta and NWA really had no choice but to cave. I have heard no strike talk from the NWA pilots. I have heard a lot of strike talk from the Delta MEC.

Folks, my point is not to point fingers at any one group. My point is that one group cannot do it alone. Round em up and shut the airspace down. Bite the bullet, create one list, and weild some responsible power.

Ticket prices are the lowest ever, and so are the wages of the people responsbile for billions of lives.

 

[aa73]

Then the AA guys caved under the threat of ch11, the USAir guys caved and the next day went to ch11, came out and went ch11 again. Next was United, caved.

Not quite in that order. USAir caved first, followed by UAL and then AA.

 

[Birdstrike]

But, Rick, all the shoes are bad right now at the legacies. Truly, it's at the point where pilots are thinking about "number one" (that is, their own families), because they have to. It's a farkin' lifeboat mentality, and no way around it.

However. That said, there are still many, many pilots at NW and DL right now who say they are willing to hold the line, no matter what. Time will tell.

But what do you do about the guys who are always willing to do it for less? If there's enough of them out there, how do you retain leverage? Remember PATCO in 1981?

 

[81Horse]

Remember PATCO in 1981?

August 3, 1981.

Oh -- I remember. In fact, I can't forget.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I've been furlooughed from American for almost five years now. In that time I received one check from the AX contract lawsuit for about $800. 800 bucks in five years. No medical insurance, travel passes, no nothing. Nada. Zilch.

Last night I had a friend come over and visit me. His Dad retired from American about 2 years ago. His Dad was going on and on about how lucky he was because he was able to take his both A and B fund in a lump sum.

He lives in Florida and is a real estate broker in his spare time. His house is worth over 5 million dollars. It has an elevator. The whole time he was talking to me about his life, he never once asked how things were for me after being furloughed. It never even crossed his mind.

The problem with the unions are that the old guys just don't give a crap at all about the young guys. They have all the power and do all that they can to protect themselves. If that means thousands of dudes get furloughed, who cares? As long as they keep their nest-egg, they are happy.

The senior airline pilots are as responsible as managment for holding us down. There are not necessarily mean spirited, they just don't give a crap about us.

I wonder if I will be like them someday? I hope not, but in 25 years I could be saying, "I was furloughed for X years, screw them." We'll see.

Big Slick,

Great post. Always, Always think about what the senior dudes want to do to the pilot group. They try to sell the membership on "improvements" for everyone but the reality is they want to help the senior dudes the most. Don't trust them.

The SWA senior guys seem to be a little better than most, but I still have my eye on them. I have, mostly, been pleasantly surprised by their leadership.

IMHO, the long term success of a pilot has much to do with the tactics of their pilot group.

I've heard at AMR the pilot group wants to hold onto the pension "at all costs". Looks like it will be borne on the backs of the F/O's.

Good luck...

 

[AceCrackshot]

I could not agree more. The Delta pilots, while much maligned on these boards, have been the ones to hold up the industry.

I've got to throw the flag on this one...

The DALPA have made a number of mistakes to get our profession to the point we see now...

Bronze medalist:
The whole PAN AM integration/nonintegration thing...which of course set the stage for a number of other windfalls at other pilots expense.

Silver medalist:
The allowance for "contract aviators" on the widebody. Oh yeah, that was a one time deal. And the same DL guys will turn around and tell JB we can't accept Transcon turns due to "precedent."

Gold medalist:
Allowing RJ commuter lift. When they (and ALPA national, to be fair) could have killed it in its cradle.

Oh yeah, DALPA is holding the line. Wrong, DALPA is starting to make the bearest of amends for the abortion that this profession has become. And that they helped create.

 

[AA717driver]

Bravo, Ace! TC