AA - not good news

[AV8OR]

Wow, what thread! Back to what somebody said on page two...

The reason for this furlough/pay issue happened way back 1995 when the RJ's started to come out. Here's what happened.

First, the Major Pilot unions scoffed and said. It'll never happen. The "commuters"(as they were then called) won't ever see jets.

Then, they, Major Pilot unions said "Well, they may get them, but they won't be profitable, because of "excedingly high" cost per ASM. The RJ won't be here for long.

Then, as the "commuters" became "regionals", the pilot groups at the regionals looked around and said, "Hey, we're flying jets, you're flying jets. We're flying AA, DAL, etc. pax, you're flying the same. We're flying BHM to NEW you're flying BHM to NEW. But we are getting paid a lot less than you guys, this can't be good for any of us in the long run, why don't we combine lists, somehow someway!" The Major Pilot unions said, your outa yer mind, yall are "commuter" pilots! Go build some "experience in your little "Barbie Jet" and call us later, we need experienced professionals here at the major, not you guys. I tell ya what, here's a bone. After you make Captain on the Barbie Jet and fly it for two years, we'll let you start at the bottom of our seniority list.

Then the Major Airlines purchased the regionals and bought even more jets, and the regional pilots said, "Hey, now I work for DAL, CAL, AA too, we really need one list so they don't play us against each other! What do yall think?" Major Pilot unions said, A. You don,t REALLY work for the same company we do. B. Your still just commuter pilots, when are yall gonna learn that? C. If yall want better pay then yall better get it on your own. We got ours, yall get yours. D. We don't have any strength as a union to compell the company to make us all one list, even if we wanted to. We're powerless to help you guys. But, we'll by God break this place if we don't get "industry leading" on the 777. E. By the way, we, the Major Pilot union, not the company, we are the ones who benevolently allow YOU to fly OUR passengers.

Then 9/11 happened, majors claimed "force majeur", did what they dang well pleased to violate every scope clause out there to replace a good portion of the Major Pilot union wage with the Regional pilot union wage, and then some Major Pilot unions said "Hey, we'll fly those "Barbie Jets". Or, "Maybe we need to consider merging lists".

That's why the industry is where it is today. Greed, arrogance, and lack of forward vision, by the pilot group that had, and do mean HAD, the strength prevent this. The regional jet pilots have seen this coming for years and tried to get the message across. The senior major pilots were busy securing "industry leading" pay. Good morning Viet Nam. Too bad. It's probably too late now. SWA has nothing to do with it.

 

[Clownpilot]

What an idiot

>>They have the ability to fly ANY SIZE aircraft to ANY DESTINATION in ANY FREQUENCY with an UNLIMITED FLEET SIZE.>>

ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. Unlimited codeshares are not allowed by any stretch of the imagination. By contract.

>>Eagle will remain at its current size (but may go all jet and adjust route structure), but there's nothing APA can do about Connection with "reverse code-sharing".>>

ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. By contract.

>>AMR management has already hinted of "things to come" in the near future involving this issue. The thing to come WILL be the 70 (and 90-seat) RJ NOT flown by mainline.>>

ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. Eagle is prohibited from flying ANY jet with greater than 70 seats to a maximum of 67 total between 45 and 70 seats. Also, because of the weight restriction in the contract few 70 seat aircraft actually qualify. By contract.

>>The 550 announced is just the start over the next several years. AMR wants the EMB-170. It hits the market early next year and will be flying everything the F-100's used too.>>

ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. The Fokker lines will be replaced by TWA MD-80's coming across the fence.The plan is to cross them at the same rate of F-100 retirement. The 550 furloughs covers all 950 Fokker pilots that will become MD-80 pilots (or whatever).

>>You can deny it, but if you do you're living in denial. >>

OK. Deny this. You're an angry little Eagle troll who revels in mainline pilots getting screwed because you are jealous and resentful. Go channel your little speculations somewhere else or at least learn the contract so you don't look like a complete idiot when you post garbage like that here.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Again people here blame pilot wages on the failure or prosper of a company. (Unbelievabe)

With ticket prices so low, the whole industry is hurting. Yes even Southwest is. They may be making money but it is nothing close to what they are accustomed to . With a few employee groups comming up on new contracts, wouldn't this put Southwest in the hole next quarter or the next? I don't think so.

Delta pilots have the highest pay scale in the industry. Yet AMR lost the most money last quarter. If all of your logic is so true then wouldn't Delta be at the fore front of the money losses?

A $20 a ticket increase for Delta equates to approximatley 1.8 Billion dollars a year. I guess you could say $20 might not go unnoticed, but how about 2 dollars a ticket until the economy gets back on it's feet.

Falcon guy, it seems to upset you that pilots at airlines have great earning potential. Why is this. Delta is slowly recovering and I don't think that if we take wage concessions it is going to save the industry. I think what would happen is.............

If we gave 1 billion in concessions, like last time. The management team would first pat each other on the back, "hey, we made some money. Lets lower ticket prices and hurt the competition." After a while of that you get......."Hey we are loosing money again, those **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** evil pilots. We need concessions and we need them now or we are going out of business!!!!!!!!!!"

Just my opinion.

I know this is very simplified, but it makes a point.

 

[dogg]

Why is that pilots feel that they are worth so much?

We always hear the comparison of doctor, lawyer and pilot. Anyone that believes an airline pilot should be compensated like a doctor is taking themselves way to seriously. Doctors hold peoples lives in their hands , we do not. For everyone on furlough, quit watching bubba sports and mtv and take a look at discovery health and science. It will make you feel small and insignificant. As to lawyers, well if we are going to compare our profession to them we should include mobsters as well. Lawyers are just the legal form of mafioso.(add judges, DA's and AG's to that as well.)

What we are really are blue collar workers trying to fit in to the white collar world. We are in there with the guys that drive buses over the mountains in the winter on icy roads and across the desert in the extreme heat and into the choked freeways of our nations big cities. If you don't think that that job takes skill and isn't stressful and doesn't put you away from home on a regular basis, just try it sometime. Likewise we are in the same group that backs an 18 wheeler out of an impossibly tight parking spot with out hitting anything and then takes it on the road for 20 days and 15 cities in the snow and ice and blazing heat and traffic choked interstates. Not a skilled and high stress position? Try it sometime.


Now before everyone jumps up and down and goes on about there prep-schols and ivy league colleges and how their education makes the difference. Think for a minute. Unlike your friends who are doctors or computer programmers or engineers who use their education daily and who are constantly in school to stay up in their fields, our college degrees have nothing to do with our skill, our trade if you will. And we do not go to school constantly to stay up with our trade. The sham of a mockery that is called recurrrent training at every airline in the country does not compare. The airlines have, with the help of the FAA, turned our "recurrent training" into a convenient little acronym-SVT, AQP, PC, PT etc..... it is the same thing over and over and over. And some of the best airline pilots that I have ever flown with had nothing more than GED.

It is not that I don't want more money and a higher standard of living etc.. it is just that reality must play a part. We are really skilled tradesmen and as such we should be compensated accordingly. The image of the airline pilot as a white collar professional is just that, an image. And we happen to have a good image consulting group called ALPA to keep that perception alive. ( not the alpa of Dave Behncke). Just a little food for thought on a subject that is going to become very relavent in the coming years

 

[NYRANGERS]

Dogg, if you don't think you are worth that much as a pilot thats great. I don't think anyone really cares.

On the other hand there are a lot of pilots who take great pride and dedication in the job they do. They also think thry are worth every penny they get paid, some deserve a lot more.

I suggest you either start a movement to lower pilot wages, or just pay for your training and take a pay cut yourself. I don't think too many AAirline pilots would agree with you. Some might say that the pilot that makes more than he, is over paid, but I think that would be a small minority. I haven't heard a pilot beside yourself, say they are not worth the money they get paid. Hope I am never on one of your flights, souds like low confidence.

 

[NYRANGERS]

It is all about business... not about careers... people still can't seem to figure this out...

Yea, you really seem to have figured things out. I also find it hard to believe you have close to airline earning potential.

Sound like you might be over paid, if you corprate people don't figure it out................

 

[CCDiscoB]

Dogg,

I don't think anyone here is comparing themselves to a doctor or any other white collar professional. I agree with you, if they are they need to come back reality. I think a lot of us are aware of our place in life, hence all the Truckmaster jokes.

A few times in my career I've been assigned with some very smart dudes. I would ask, "what are you doing here, go save some lives." They were actually just square filling on their way to becoming astronauts.

But being the highly trained operators that we are, we expect to be paid well.

 

[3HOLER]

Hey Clown Pilot - I don't think that you could have your head any further up your ass!!!!!

 

[hawkowl88]

CCDisco:

I am a white collar professional. I am not a truck driver or a bus driver. I have a degree in Economics/Mathematics and have spent over $50K on my "post grad" flying education (licenses & ratings). I've served my years as a student, and suffered thru four years of lowpaying internship (flight instructing), a few years of low paying residency (regional F.O.) to arrive at the point where I'm just below general partner (R.J. capt.) 13 years after soloing I'm on the verge of making partner/setting up private practice (equivalent to a major airline)

Go save some lives? I save lives everyday by not taking chances with questionable repairs, bad weather, bad ATC, poor security etc. The difference is we as airline pilots are held to much higher professonial standards than doctors, lawyers, CEO's, police officers etc. I take a PC every six months, I average a Fed in the jumpseat every 9 months, checkairmen in the jumpseat every 6 months, a flight physical every six months etc. Screw up at anytime and your career could be over. I'm not complaining, I like the challenge.

I always keep in the front of my mind that I am hauling PEOPLE who pay my salary. I will bend over backwards to get these PEOPLE to their destinations safely, as comfortably as possible and on time. If I have ruffle the feathers of a gate agent, put my boot in some rampers behind, or (beg him to hurry) in order to help the customers I do. Because it is all about customer service. Being an airline pilot and, a captain in particular, is a helluva lot more than nailing an ILS and greasing the landing. And we as professionals should understand this and strive to increase the big picture and who is paying our way.

If you thing of yourself as a truck driver you are in the wrong business. Go drive trucks or continue dropping bombs.

 

[JohnDoe]

Dogg stated:

"Doctors hold peoples lives in their hands , we do not. "

Using that logic.....If the crew of an airplane makes a mistake on an instrument approach and flies into the side of a mountain,all the passengers will survive because we don't have their lives in our hands.....Is that what you are saying??

 

[dogg]

Come on; you hold peoples lives in your hand. Maybe if you are a depressed and suicidal. What the hell is so hard about flying an instrument approach that you feel the need to screw it up and fly into the side of a mountain. You guys are taking yourselves far to seriously. Fly so that you live and so will everyone else. And if your mind is on all those poor passengers in the back then it may as well be up youre @@$ because it is not where it should be like in the cockpit.

 

[46Driver]

Interesting timing - I just showed up to do reserve duty at the squadron while all of the bankruptcy news about USAir and United was breaking as well as the increased furloughs at American and Delta. Everyone wanted to know why the pilots were trying to bankrupt the companies - don't they know how easy they have it? Most of the active duty military pilots at the squadron blamed the airline pilots for asking for way too much money in a milk run job and way too much time off. Don't shoot me, I'm just tellin' what I hear....

 

[herb]

Clownpilot,

There is not any scope applied to the reverse code-shares by American Connection carriers TSA and CHQ. This is why AMR is expanding the AX code flying. On Aug. 15, 50 new destinations were added to the AX code. Just look in this weeks N*SYSHOT in RES. I'm sure there is a lot more to come.

In response to:
>>They have the ability to fly ANY SIZE aircraft to ANY DESTINATION in ANY FREQUENCY with an UNLIMITED FLEET SIZE.>>

You said:
>>ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. Unlimited codeshares are not allowed by any stretch of the imagination. By contract.>>

Would you please quote a part of your contract that limits anyone other than Eagle operating under the AA code?

In response to:
>>Eagle will remain at its current size (but may go all jet and adjust route structure), but there's nothing APA can do about Connection with "reverse code-sharing".>>

You said:
>>ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. By contract.>>

Again, please reference the wording in the contract specifically. I only know of wording which limits "Commuter Jets at Commuter Air Carriers" supplying feed to AA. WHICH AMR DOES NOT INTERPRET TO INCLUDE TRANS STATES/CHAUTAUQUA flying under the reverse code share (AX).

In response to:
>>AMR management has already hinted of "things to come" in the near future involving this issue. The thing to come WILL be the 70 (and 90-seat) RJ NOT flown by mainline.>>

You said:
>>ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. Eagle is prohibited from flying ANY jet with greater than 70 seats to a maximum of 67 total between 45 and 70 seats. Also, because of the weight restriction in the contract few 70 seat aircraft actually qualify. By contract. >>

You are correct in saying "Eagle" is restricted. However, per AMR's interpretation, the AX reverse code-share (TSA/CHQ) IS NOT RESTRICTED. Can you show me where it says reverse code-share is limited by your scope??? I agree that the term "Commuter Jets" used in your scope clause should refer to all airlines supplying feed, but that is not the interpretation of your contract by AMR. If you don't think Trans States will be flying 70 and 90 seat jets...why do you suppose they are negotiating a pay scale for that size aircraft??? Look at http://www.tsalounge.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1107

 

[JohnDoe]

Dogg...

I never mentioned anything about being depressed or suicidal, or intentionally flying into the side of a mountain.......But mistakes DO happen (as has been the case in ALOT of aviation accidents that cost lives), and passengers do die.....HENCE, I guess their lives are in the pilots hands since it was their mistake that killed them......I fail to see how the job pilots do cannot have a direct affect on the outcome of the passengers.

A doctor does his job correctly, the patient lives. Pilots do their job correctly, the passengers live. Where's the difference (other than the obvious schooling and technical aspects)?? Both occupations can cause death to their customers if not done correctly.


And no, I am not thinking of the passengers on my airplane directly.....Like you said, if I do my job and the airplane arrives safe, so will they.

 

[dogg]

John; I will back off, relax and explain myself. The comment about peoples lives in our hands is metaphorical. Of course we do have their lives in our hands literally. But we also have our lives in our hands and as long as we get back so will they. That is my point. I go every day( well once in a while when I get called on reserve) and take an airplane full of people or boxes or people and boxes or cows or horses or whatever from here to there and back again. I try to do it on the schedule that my company has provided but often that is unrealistic so i don't worry about that. I worry about bringing myself and the airplane back to where it started in one piece. That is really all that we are paid to do. If you or anyone else is allowing other factors like people or mgmt or schedules or profitability to enter your thought process then you are endangering yourself and the people sitting behind you.

 

[JohnDoe]

Thats fine......

I was ONLY commenting on your assumption that we don't have a direct affect on the lives of our passengers.......
I was not commenting in the least about how we do our job in relation to management, pay, contracts, or anything else like that.

 

[Hoss]

Hey Clownpilot:

No wonder people have such a bad impression about pilots for our airline (read: SkyNazi). Fools such as yourself (who, of course, have the arrogance to put "AA domestic F/O" in their profile) have proven time-and-time again that AA is a good company to work for, but not a fun company to work for.
Personally, I'd rather be working for a company with a good safety record (face it, AA guys will fly a checklist right into the ground), that has cool people (i.e. AWA, SWA), yet like almost everyone else, the pay issue is the main reason for coming here.

You are obviously someone who never had the priveledge of "doing time" at the regionals. To refer to someone as an "Eagle troll" is simply arrogant, and shows how uneducated you are. How long have you been working for AA? Are you one of those F/O's that still wears the SCOPE badge? I assume we're around the same seniority, which is nice, because that means I will never have to be your F/O. Regards.

 

[HA25]

FalconCpt, don't take this the wrong way, but you sound like a lot of the guys I run into at the FBO's that fly corporate. They HATE the "airline guys" and keep saying things like "$300,000/year to fly a 777??"

The fact is, if you don't think your worth that kind of money at the end of a 30 year career, and you are satisfied with your earnings, great. I am not . I am passionate about aviation, and even if my education allowed me to earn more outside aviation, I will not jump this ship.

That said, I am also not one of those "thank God I'm a pilot" types who will work for less than people with a fraction of my responsibility do in the offices all accross America.

They always say "Pilots are their own worse enemy's". From the guy who will pay to build time in the right seat, to the Instuctor who will fly for free....it's starts there and it ends up with multiple typerated ATP's with 15 years in their career who think that that $150,000 is more money than anyone deserves to make with 120 people in the back of a 120,000lb flying gas tank.

Again, I can't belive I'm even having this arguement on this of all message boards![

 

[HA25]

And one more thing,

Hoss, if that's your attitude about AA and their pilots, then do me a favor, leave and make room for me to come back to my class. I would be glad to give you my job as a Captain on a brand new jet with some really "cool" FO's, all for the very high salary of $75,000/year. But you have to move to the SF Bay Area.

Apartments rent for $2000/month for 2 bed rooms.

 

[tredding@swa]

enough already...

C'mon E V E R Y O N E.... give it a break...

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http://www.quitwhining.com/

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If ANYone is offended by these suggestions, lighten up, life is short - find some humor in your otherwise boring lives!?!?!?



Have a great day all!!! Most Sincerely - Tredding