blackjack
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- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 13
Listened to more of the tape than initially came out. Apologies if I am wrong, but it sounds like Captain flying, FO initially talking to me. The FO sounds a little rushed into declaring an emergency and communicating the plan for an immediate left turn for a right base to 31R (no disrespect at all intended here, the wind gust was called 10 seconds prior). Tower did not treat "we will have to declare an emergency" or the actual emergency declaration with the importance it deserves. You may disagree if the immediate turn for a right base was the correct call but we all want the words emergency or mayday to generate a helpful attitude with clear communication of intent from Kennedy tower or any ATC.
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kj...2010-2100Z.mp3
at 0:55 into the tape Jetblue 62 on the ILS 31R cleared to land following a B-757
at 2:29 into the tape RJ02 is cleared to land 31R
at 4:55 Twr: Comair 314 wind 330/25 cleared takeoff 22R at YA
at 6:30 American 2 checks in on the ILS 22L
Twr: You are number 2 wind 320/22 cleared to land 22L
at 7:34 mumble visual for 22L
Twr: American 2 Heavy 22L you're cleared to land
"American 2 cleared to land 22L, your localizer's not armed"
Twr: "ok I will double check it"
at&:56 Twr: "American 2 it just reset should be coming back up in a little while"
at 8:42 Twr: "wind now 320/23 Gusting to 35"
at 8:52 "American 22 we can't land on 22 we are breaking off approach and if you don't give us runway 31 Right we are going to declare an emergency"
Twr: "Alright I'll pass it along, fly runway heading for now"
"Ok we are going to declare an emergency, going to land 31 Right, we are going to the left and then coming around"
Twr: "American 2 just fly runway heading"
new voice mumble (maybe "clear the area" by the Captain I assume)
Twr: "OK are you saying you are declaring an emergency?"
"Three times I've told you that, three times we are declaring an emergency"
Twr: "Ok I just want to verify you told me if you didn't get 31 Right you would have to declare an emergency you can understand, fly runway heading, I gotta get you a turn!"
at 9:44 Twr: "Jetblue 62 left on Alpha..." (just turned off of 31R)
at 10:10 Twr: "Fly heading 180"
(new voice Captain I assume) "you know what American 2 Heavy we are turning around to the left here and landing on 31, remove everybody from our way we have declared an emergency, we are on a visual"
Twr: "American 2 Heavy cleared to land 31 Right winds 310 at 24 Gusting to 34"
Twr: Cactus 12 maintain 2000 and cancel approach clearance
at: 10:49 Cactus 12 reports there is no ILS up for 22L
(later vectored away hdg 180 at 3000 back to approach)
at: 11:20 Twr: American 2243 hold position .... are you past the hold bar
American 2243 says yes
Twr: American 2243 I've got traffic inbound turn left no delay 22R left on FB
at 11:45 Delta 550 checks in for landing 22R winds 310 at 23
at 12:50 Twr: "American 2 Heavy left K right B ground is .65"
I thought IrishInUS had a couple of good points at Pprune
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/414573-aa-crew-fed-up-jfk-atc-declares-emergency-8.html
3. However, the controller was told that they would declare an emerg. if they didn't get the required runway. To me that sounds like a sort of "min fuel" call. The controller's mistake, in my view, was to say that he would "pass on the request" or something to that effect, that showed an undue concern that would have transmitted to the pilots that they were about to get sent out 50 miles to join the end of the line. Under those circumstances the pilots subsequent emergency call seems not only reasonable but required.
4. After receiving the emergency call, rather than ask what they intended, the controller's reaction was to issue an instruction (runway heading for the moment), this would have transmitted to the crew that "this guy just doesn't get it". If they have an emergency that absolutely allowed them to tell the controller what they were doing and it was the controllers job to get traffic out of their way.
5. I have had to go-around in New York recently and immediately declare min fuel, the controllers reaction was to FIRST say, "Ok, I'll get you right back in after the three on final, turn to XXX heading ...". That reassured me that this controller "gets it" and wont force me to declare an emergency. If the controller had said "I'll pass that on blah blah .." I would have done precisely what this crew did. All pilots think of Avianca Flight 52 when put in this situation, the pilots were not clear or decisive and let themselves get intimidated by the NY controllers, it got them killed along with scores of passengers.
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kj...2010-2100Z.mp3
at 0:55 into the tape Jetblue 62 on the ILS 31R cleared to land following a B-757
at 2:29 into the tape RJ02 is cleared to land 31R
at 4:55 Twr: Comair 314 wind 330/25 cleared takeoff 22R at YA
at 6:30 American 2 checks in on the ILS 22L
Twr: You are number 2 wind 320/22 cleared to land 22L
at 7:34 mumble visual for 22L
Twr: American 2 Heavy 22L you're cleared to land
"American 2 cleared to land 22L, your localizer's not armed"
Twr: "ok I will double check it"
at&:56 Twr: "American 2 it just reset should be coming back up in a little while"
at 8:42 Twr: "wind now 320/23 Gusting to 35"
at 8:52 "American 22 we can't land on 22 we are breaking off approach and if you don't give us runway 31 Right we are going to declare an emergency"
Twr: "Alright I'll pass it along, fly runway heading for now"
"Ok we are going to declare an emergency, going to land 31 Right, we are going to the left and then coming around"
Twr: "American 2 just fly runway heading"
new voice mumble (maybe "clear the area" by the Captain I assume)
Twr: "OK are you saying you are declaring an emergency?"
"Three times I've told you that, three times we are declaring an emergency"
Twr: "Ok I just want to verify you told me if you didn't get 31 Right you would have to declare an emergency you can understand, fly runway heading, I gotta get you a turn!"
at 9:44 Twr: "Jetblue 62 left on Alpha..." (just turned off of 31R)
at 10:10 Twr: "Fly heading 180"
(new voice Captain I assume) "you know what American 2 Heavy we are turning around to the left here and landing on 31, remove everybody from our way we have declared an emergency, we are on a visual"
Twr: "American 2 Heavy cleared to land 31 Right winds 310 at 24 Gusting to 34"
Twr: Cactus 12 maintain 2000 and cancel approach clearance
at: 10:49 Cactus 12 reports there is no ILS up for 22L
(later vectored away hdg 180 at 3000 back to approach)
at: 11:20 Twr: American 2243 hold position .... are you past the hold bar
American 2243 says yes
Twr: American 2243 I've got traffic inbound turn left no delay 22R left on FB
at 11:45 Delta 550 checks in for landing 22R winds 310 at 23
at 12:50 Twr: "American 2 Heavy left K right B ground is .65"
I thought IrishInUS had a couple of good points at Pprune
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/414573-aa-crew-fed-up-jfk-atc-declares-emergency-8.html
3. However, the controller was told that they would declare an emerg. if they didn't get the required runway. To me that sounds like a sort of "min fuel" call. The controller's mistake, in my view, was to say that he would "pass on the request" or something to that effect, that showed an undue concern that would have transmitted to the pilots that they were about to get sent out 50 miles to join the end of the line. Under those circumstances the pilots subsequent emergency call seems not only reasonable but required.
4. After receiving the emergency call, rather than ask what they intended, the controller's reaction was to issue an instruction (runway heading for the moment), this would have transmitted to the crew that "this guy just doesn't get it". If they have an emergency that absolutely allowed them to tell the controller what they were doing and it was the controllers job to get traffic out of their way.
5. I have had to go-around in New York recently and immediately declare min fuel, the controllers reaction was to FIRST say, "Ok, I'll get you right back in after the three on final, turn to XXX heading ...". That reassured me that this controller "gets it" and wont force me to declare an emergency. If the controller had said "I'll pass that on blah blah .." I would have done precisely what this crew did. All pilots think of Avianca Flight 52 when put in this situation, the pilots were not clear or decisive and let themselves get intimidated by the NY controllers, it got them killed along with scores of passengers.
