AA JFK crosswind emergency...

[igneousy2]

WTF Over. I cannot believe that their is even an argument on a board full of pilots.

I am reading all these "definitions" of emergency and cannot believe that none of these "pilots" have actually gotten it right! It's whenever the Captain SAYS it's an emergency! Period end of story...this has solid legal precedence and it has been that way for years! It's not if the FO thinks it...the FA's think it...your DO or the FAA thinks it...it's the CAPTAIN.

Second...You don't have to explain "the nature of your emergency" EVER....according to the regs...they are lucky you called at all.

Some of you have a problem with being a Captain as can be seen from these posts...I can't blame you though seeing how the idea of Captains Authority has degraded to the point where not even pilots understand what it means.

I'm not surprised though, I've heard of an airline that teaches their crews that you have to be "re-released" to a diversion airport even though an engine just caught fire at V1 on takeoff, you are returning for a landing, and this "re-release" involves getting dispatcher initials and a time-stamp while at 2000' in the traffic pattern at LAX while preparing for a single engine abnormal configuration landing ... am I the only one that thinks this is just CRAZY.

Later

 

[C-150ETOPS]

This one has gone up the food chain, it is national's court now. The Garden City FSDO did some initial footwork, with DFW jumping in to counter some of the first questions posed by the local FSDO(Garden City) rep.

Most probably outcomes being discussed, some changes to guidance contained in the American Airlines manual system, training and checking program, operational control issues will need some additional oversight and recommendations for changes.

As far as the crew is concerned the possibility of 709 rides is still on the table. The decision will come shortly.

Wild guess, but my thoughts are that there are two factors driving the above info if true.

1. The standard investigation of the crew, ATC and procedures for both.

2. Retaliation from the higher levels of the FAA and ATC. The "Kings" procedures for cramming too much traffic into the NYC metro area, and their failure to modernize the system may be questioned by Senators and Governors, but will not be questioned by the actions of peon pilots and controllers.

 

[igneousy2]

The way violations get handled at the FAA...

Line Inspectors spend hours and hours investigating writing reports and making recommendations then submit said report to the Region Counsel.

Region Counsel will look at this for about...2 minutes in this case tops...imagines what the cross examination his inspectors will look like...realize that he will be faced with proving something that is not provable...A losing battle that will hurt his win percentage...kick the report back to FSDO requesting further information that will be impossible to produce ...where a secretary will lock it away in a file cabinet where it will never be seen again.

Captain: I thought that if I followed the clearance it would have taken me off of a stabilized approach which would have caused me to go-around...which I know from my personal experience would have burnt X,000 lbs of fuel at a minimum...coupled with my personal years of experience into JFK with radar vectors to Delaware would have caused me to land with X,000 lbs of fuel which is below what I believe to be safe.

Okay Mr. FAA lawyer...prove that X,000 lbs of fuel is a safe margin.

No matter what number you pick...especially numbers less than 6500 lbs in a 767...not possible.

My prediction for this case is that all parties involved are going to let this thing die as quickly as the news cycle will allow it. The "flying public" is going to flip-out if they find out we don't top the tanks off for every flight, heaven forbid they find out we regularly plan to land with only a 45 minute margin.

 

[ackattacker]

I am reading all these "definitions" of emergency and cannot believe that none of these "pilots" have actually gotten it right! It's whenever the Captain SAYS it's an emergency! Period end of story...this has solid legal precedence and it has been that way for years! It's not if the FO thinks it...the FA's think it...your DO or the FAA thinks it...it's the CAPTAIN.

Second...You don't have to explain "the nature of your emergency" EVER....according to the regs...they are lucky you called at all.

This is just plain flat out wrong information. Almost nothing you have said here is accurate. You are living in a fantasy land.

An emergency is whenever there is an emergency not whenever you say there's an emergency. Whether the captain *declares* it to be an emergency is not necessarily relevant. A declaration of emergency is not some magic set of words, it is a simple statement to ATC that you either a) require assistance or b) intend to exercise your PIC emergency authority in order to ensure a safe outcome of flight. In the case of a), the captain is not required to declare an emergency, anyone can do it including ATC or the dispatcher. Tower sees flames shooting out your engine? Bam, emergency declared, trucks roll, you don't have to say squat.

In the case of b), you have the PIC authority whether you declare it or not. It's inherent.

HOWEVER, whenever you deviate from a rule or regulation using your emergency authority you are ABSOLUTELY required to explain yourself to the FAA within 10 written days. 121.557. If there was no actual emergency, expect certificate action. You are also REQUIRED to keep ATC or dispatch informed of your progress during the actual emergency.

Sec. 121.557 - Emergencies: Domestic and flag operations.
(a) In an emergency situation that requires immediate decision and action the pilot in command may take any action that he considers necessary under the circumstances. In such a case he may deviate from prescribed operations procedures and methods, weather minimums, and this chapter, to the extent required in the interests of safety.
(b) In an emergency situation arising during flight that requires immediate decision and action by an aircraft dispatcher, and that is known to him, the aircraft dispatcher shall advise the pilot in command of the emergency, shall ascertain the decision of the pilot in command, and shall have the decision recorded. If the aircraft dispatcher cannot communicate with the pilot, he shall declare an emergency and take any action that he considers necessary under the circumstances.
(c) Whenever a pilot in command or dispatcher exercises emergency authority, he shall keep the appropriate ATC facility and dispatch centers fully informed of the progress of the flight. The person declaring the emergency shall send a written report of any deviation through the certificate holder's operations manager, to the Administrator. A dispatcher shall send his report within 10 days after the date of the emergency, and a pilot in command shall send his report within 10 days after returning to his home base.

 

[Draginass]

So what is considered emergency fuel for a 767 at AA? My company is 4000.

4000 lbs is nuts in a 767.

 

[atcloser]

This post is 100% on the ball correct. Herein lies the real blame for what happened that day. Our hands are tied too.

Min fuel doesn't mean squat to JFK ATC. The FAA management is forcing the controllers to over-maximize the traffic into and out of JFK due to the runway closure. In retrospect, maybe the best course of action considering that it's obvious that the airline and FAA managements want to put the runway closure monkey on the back of the pilots, would be to divert when the FAA insists on landing aircraft on runways with close-to, or blatantly out-of-limits winds and refuses to allow you to land into the wind.

As usual, it's the pilots that have to make up for the lack of leadership in airline management and the FAA.

If you read what the FAA controller rep said afterwards, it's obvious to me that the controllers at JFK are under tremendous pressure from FAA management to "push tin" to the max and to hell with everything else.

 

[Patriot328]

4000 lbs is nuts in a 767.

You aren't kidding!!!

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Memory fades me as to what point the heat exchanger for the hydraulic system goes uncovered for lack of fuel. 2000 lbs/300 gallons isn't much. Another factor is pitch limitations. Perform a robust GA and take your chances with 400 gallons sloshing away from the pick up points. You can also take your chances with the calibration in a set of 20-30 year old tanks. i'm sure AA nailed those numbers down on the last D-Check.

Then again, forget all the above. They should have been more caring and sharing, along with fostering a cohesive relationship with JFK Tower in order to make a team decison.

Some here seem to have spent too much time watching the Teletubbies as kids, and overdosed on self esteem validation while in school.

 

[igneousy2]

This is just plain flat out wrong information. Almost nothing you have said here is accurate. You are living in a fantasy land.

An emergency is whenever there is an emergency not whenever you say there's an emergency. Whether the captain *declares* it to be an emergency is not necessarily relevant. A declaration of emergency is not some magic set of words, it is a simple statement to ATC that you either a) require assistance or b) intend to exercise your PIC emergency authority in order to ensure a safe outcome of flight. In the case of a), the captain is not required to declare an emergency, anyone can do it including ATC or the dispatcher. Tower sees flames shooting out your engine? Bam, emergency declared, trucks roll, you don't have to say squat.

In the case of b), you have the PIC authority whether you declare it or not. It's inherent.

HOWEVER, whenever you deviate from a rule or regulation using your emergency authority you are ABSOLUTELY required to explain yourself to the FAA within 10 written days. 121.557. If there was no actual emergency, expect certificate action. You are also REQUIRED to keep ATC or dispatch informed of your progress during the actual emergency.

Okay you got me on the 10 written days...I said EVER but what I really meant is EVER to ATC on the radio.

But I stand by the rest of it...they are lucky you called...91.3 can negate all the rest of what you quoted if you don't feel like you have the time.

The point is that THIS captain believed that not putting the airplane down right now constituted an emergency. From the reports on here he had 6,500 lbs of fuel when he landed which even in the narrow body world is not a whole lot down low.

 

[LJ45]

I had to get pretty nasty with them a few months back going into TEB. One runway open and the tailwind component was well over 10 kts, which is a limitation on the aircraft I was flying. I asked for opposite direction and was told no, I told them the tailwind component was over the limit and they said everyone is landing that direction. Finally, I said aircraft have their limits and the tailwind component is over our legal limit, and I added, haven't we had enough aircraft problems at TEB already. After three times and getting pretty insistent on the last request, we get vectored off to never never land while they turn everything around. Then the controller wanted to be my best friend on the radio after a while. The northeast flying sucks, nothing but attitudes.