Aa Increase To Recalls To 50 Per Month

[Draginass]

Aren't there almost 400 AA "natives" that were hired and on the seniority list after the former TWA guys that technically had not been "brought over." What about them?

 

[Cleared Direct]

Yes, the last pilots on the seniority list at AA are not ex TWA LLC pilots. Their recall will not generate any AA numbers for Eagle pilots nor flow through classes.

I am sure a large number of ex-TWA LLC pilots will not be returning to AA. This will reduce the amount of AA numbers generated for Eagle pilots under Supp W/Letter 3. Granted, something else could come out of the negotiations if they all agree.

Eagle's main concern is attracting new hires at this point. They want to get rid of the higher paid Captains also at a metered rate to maintain staffing at minimum amounts. They have turned down flying that AA wants them to do because of staffing issues now. They have also cancelled all Saab upgrades. ALPA now has been informed that our fleet size will be reduced because of staffing.

 

[Draginass]

The mess is that if FTs are brought over because of the redefinition of a "new hire" class, now you have "new hires" going ahead of existing AA furloughees, in the case of the 400 natives at the end of the list.

What's your feeling for how many FTs will want to come to AA, whenever the gate is opened?

 

[AA717driver]

Actually, both the TWA number generation grievance and the recall in seniority order grievances have already been heard by arbitrator LaRocco. He has already made his opinion and order on the TWA number generation grievance.

He never said the TWA LLC pilots were "new hires". He said that the positions that they are being recalled to are "new hire positions" as defined in Supp W/Letter 3. As such the Eagle pilots with AA seniority numbers will be called to class with them in AA seniority order. Additionally, Eagle pilots who elected flow through but were never given an AA seniority number because there were no new hire positions will be assigned AA numbers at 50% of the recalls of non AA-trained ex TWA-LLC pilots.

LaRocco asked AMR, APA, and ALPA to determine where the line is for "new hire positions". He also warned them that his opinion on the recall in seniority order grievance would be better addressed in a joint remedy while together determining the point of new hire positions. Like most arbitrators, they don't want to decide for the parties.

It won't be a while. It will be resolved fairly quickly. Any of the four parties can ask LaRocco to determine the point of "new hire positions" right now. There was a 60-day waiting period, which has already passed. As long as the negotiations are progressing, no one will ask for a ruling.

Not including any FIS the first non AA-trained ex TWA LLC pilot has starts class this month. The Eagle pilots with AA numbers ahead of them will be retro protected for pay and retirement.

The un-real AA numbers that Eagle pilots hold are about to become very real.

Nice try. The second grievance has been heard and a decision will come in Oct.

The two parties are in discussions as agreed to in the first arbitration and if they can't arrive at an agreement soon, they go back to SAC at the end of the month.

"As such the Eagle pilots with AA seniority numbers will be called to class in AA seniority order." The arbitrator said nothing of the sort.

Ultimately, he said that some TWA pilots held positions at AA and some did not. He was unable to determine where that line fell (although he alluded to the staple point although in practice, that's absurd--it ignores the methodology used to integrate the lists).

We'll see at the end of the month. I wouldn't order that rollaboard with the "AA" logo just yet. TC

 

[Cleared Direct]

The mess is that if FTs are brought over because of the redefinition of a "new hire" class, now you have "new hires" going ahead of existing AA furloughees, in the case of the 400 natives at the end of the list.

What's your feeling for how many FTs will want to come to AA, whenever the gate is opened?

My guess would out of the approx 400 with AA numbers at this point only 75-150 want to still go. Most don't want to go because of the little time left before retirement. Obviously this could change if it goes to age 65. Others don't want to go because of the big drop in pay (poby pay) and quality of life changes (reserve commuting to base).

Either way it will probably be arbitrated whether or not they have to vacate their seats at Eagle and go to AA. Eagle management wants them out because of their high senior pay, and FO's want them gone to advance at Eagle.

 

[Cleared Direct]

Nice try. The second grievance has been heard and a decision will come in Oct.

So your post stating that:

The next grievance to be heard will determine if recall classes constitute "new hire" classes for the purposes of allowing AE pilots to flow through.

is incorrect information. As I already stated both grievances have been heard. The first grievance already has an opinion and order on the definition of "new hire position" as it pertains to Supp W/ Letter 3. This is not in discussion or negotiations with the parties. I don't want to spoon feed you, so please just read the 50 page opinion and award from Lorocco. You should be able to download it from APA's site. If not I will post it.

You also have access to Supp W that states:

_______________________________________

III. Employment Opportunities at AA for AMR Eagle, Inc. Pilots​

A. At least one (1) out of every two (2) new hire positions per new hire class at AA will be offered to CJ Captains who are line pilots and who have completed their IOE at AMR Eagle, Inc. Such positions will be offered to the CJ Captains who are line pilots in order of their AMR Eagle, Inc. seniority.​

B. If a CJ Captain is unable to fill a new hire position at AA in accordance with Paragraph III.A. above, due to a training freeze or other operational constraint, (see Paragraph III.J. below), such CJ Captain will be placed on the AA Pilots Seniority List and will count toward the number of new hire positions. The pilot’s AA occupational seniority date and number will be
established as if he were able to fill such new hire position at AA and had attended the new hire training class referenced in Paragraph III.A. above. Such pilot’s length of service for pay purposes, date of hire for pension purposes, and length of service for vacation accrual will be established in accordance with III.C. below. The number of such CJ Captains will not exceed the difference between the number of CJ Captains who are able to fill new hire positions at AA and the number of new hire positions which must be offered to CJ Captains in accordance with paragraph III.A. above.​

C. A CJ Captain’s (1) placement on the AA Pilots Seniority List (except as provided in Paragraph III.B. above which is only applicable for placement on the AA Pilots Seniority List in order to establish an AA occupational seniority date and number), (2) length of service for pay purposes, and (3) "date of hire" for pension purposes will be based on the date such pilot is entered on the AA payroll. Such pilot’s length of service for vacation accrual will be based on the cumulative total of the pilot’s service at AMR Eagle, Inc. and AA.​

D. If a CJ Captain is placed on the AA Pilots Seniority List per III.B. above, such CJ Captain will receive priority based on his AA seniority in filling a new hire position in the next new hire class, following release from a training freeze or other AMR Eagle, Inc. imposed operational constraint. Such CJ Captains will not count toward the number of new hire positions
offered to CJ Captains at AMR Eagle, Inc., under Paragraph III.A. above.​

E. Each of the first 125 AMR Eagle, Inc. pilots who successfully complete transition training as a CJ Captain must fulfill a training freeze for a period of eighteen (18) months from the date said pilot completes IOE. All other pilots who successfully complete transition training as CJ Captains must
fulfill a training freeze for a period of two (2) years from the date each pilot completes IOE, unless released from such training freeze by AMR Eagle,
Inc.
_______________________________________​

​

​

Lorocco's order on the definition of "new hire positions" in Supp W/Letter 3 is that if the recalled pilot was an ex-TWA LLC pilot furloughed directly from TWA LLC then such pilot is considered filling a "new hire position". When a new hire position occurs at AA then an Eagle pilot with an AA seniority number (and having finished the 2 year training lock) gets to fill that class in AA seniority order. Additionally, an AA seniority number is offered to a CJ Captain who has completed IOE.​

Regardless of whether or not Eagle ALPA received a favorable award from the recall in seniority order grievance, we affectively already got it with Lorocco's opinion on the first grievance. That is the only reason APA is even talking to us. They know they were beat on this one.​

The two parties are in discussions as agreed to in the first arbitration and if they can't arrive at an agreement soon, they go back to SAC at the end of the month.

We meet again on Tues August 21st smart guy.

"As such the Eagle pilots with AA seniority numbers will be called to class in AA seniority order." The arbitrator said nothing of the sort.

He did not have to. The grievance only asked him to determine if a "new hire position" had occurred as related to Supp W/Letter 3. He said it had occurred. The outcome is clearly defined in Supp W/Letter 3. If you won't read or listen to me, just ask your APA reps. APA is not even arguing what happens if a "new hire position" has been triggered. They argued the definition only.

Ultimately, he said that some TWA pilots held positions at AA and some did not. He was unable to determine where that line fell (although he alluded to the staple point although in practice, that's absurd--it ignores the methodology used to integrate the lists).

Tell Lorooco he is absurd. See how far that gets you. He only referenced the staple point as it related to who was trained at AA as opposed to who was never trained at AA before they were furloughed.

We'll see at the end of the month. I wouldn't order that rollaboard with the "AA" logo just yet. TC

As I already posted earlier, most don't want to go to AA for various reasons. I will be just as happy to stay at Eagle, and then come over above you with retro pay/benefits for when Lorocco said I should have gone to AA.

Oh yea, nice try yourself AA717driver.

 

[stlflyguy]

So a guy can transfer from the Executive certificate to the Eagle certificate and not be a newhire because he's still on the same AE seniority list....but a TWA LLC pilot (working for a subsidiary of American Airlines) is essentially a newhire for Eagle's purposes because he has to go to indoc? Did I get that right?

stlflyguy

 

[AA717driver]

Cleared--I DID talk to a member of the negotiating committee. In fact, I've called him several times after reading your posts on the subject.

Your post is chock full of extrapolations and assumptions. What Sup. W/Letter 3 "says" means nothing now. It's in the hands of the 4 parties, as ordered by the arbitrator.

I know both grievances have been heard. Sorry, I misspoke--maybe mentioning that the decision would be rendered in October might be a clue...

I made sure that I re-read the relevent sections of the arbitrator's decision--The Discussion and the Award and Order. The Arbitrator makes it clear that he cannot--should not, make a decision in this case. He implores the parties to come to an agreement outside of the arbitration.

The discussions will continue next (or the following--the date isn't important) week. If nothing comes of it, they will be back in front of the arbitrator at the end of the month.

His overriding reason for this is that both the CBA's of Eagle and AA are poorly written and neither the CBA's nor Sup. W/Letter 3 adequately address the direction the parties should take in the event of a merger/acquisition. The Discussion is full of "...but on the other hand..." reasoning. There is no clear-cut decision to be made here. He is basically telling the parties "don't make me...".

"He only referenced the staple point as it related to was trained at AA as opposed to who was never trained at AA before they were furloughed." I am above the staple point. I was never trained at AA. I was furloughed. That is why he is unable to issue a remedy--he is very clear in the Discussion section on this point.

I don't want you to spoon feed me--what you're eating has already been consumed, digested and excreted. TC

 

[thor2j]

MD80--There are discussions ongoing. If any flowthroughs are added, they will go on (or very near) the bottom of the list.



All I know is that the "real" AA pilots in my recall class had to go through EXACTLY the same indoc I did last week. Are they newhires too?



Swaayze--No breaks for aa73!

You need to clarify what you mean by "real" AA pilots. I hope you don't think Air Cal, Reno, and especially TWA are any more "real" AA pilots then any other form of intigration. The flow throughs are just another form of intigration, plain and simple. So next time you say "real" AA pilots make sure you mean the ones originally hired at AA, and not some other "fake" form of AA pilots.

 

[AA717driver]

You need to clarify what you mean by "real" AA pilots. I hope you don't think Air Cal, Reno, and especially TWA are any more "real" AA pilots then any other form of intigration. The flow throughs are just another form of intigration, plain and simple. So next time you say "real" AA pilots make sure you mean the ones originally hired at AA, and not some other "fake" form of AA pilots.

thor--You have your section of the Green Book and I have mine. I'm not ashamed of my heritage. TC