A Tranny's first day of class at Southwest

[Kharma Police]

Ummm... OK, I'll bite. Why not? We do it every day without a problem... Of course, we also use the autothrottles below 10,000 without a problem, which I also don't understand the issues with.

Inquiring minds and all...

It shakes the horizontal stab really bad. Older 73s had issues with stress the NGs have a beefier design.

 

[dicko]

Seriously, welcome aboard guys. When you meet Bob, ask him why you can't use flaps with speedbrakes. Then stand by for the f-bombs.

He sounds like some old school ValuJet Captain. It took them 5 years to understand that the 717 was not a DC9. It was like a dog watching TV.

Here's an excerpt from a CVR at AirTran in 2004: "No Captain Billy Bob, that's the 9. Your tired old brain is confused. You can do that with the 717".

I'll be happy to explain to 'Bob' why Boeing says you can use flaps and speedbrakes.

 

[Lear70]

It was prohibited on the 727's because of the vibration issues (and you could really tell, even at Flaps 2 if the spoilers were out even SLIGHTLY), but we routinely use them on a daily basis with flaps up to 10 and it's no more vibration that just spoilers alone...

Interesting stuff... Does Southwest still prohibit their use together on the -700's?

 

[Wesb737fo]

Yeah...had this issue on a flight where fully configured the Ca deployed the speed brakes due to being high and fast ( not his fault..long story). I made the comment that we shouldn't have those out. After we landed he asked me to show him where it said he couldn't use them as long as he was above 800 feet. Only thing I could find was Bulfer ( recommends not deploying with flaps beyond 15). Later I found the same in the procedures/trng. manual. Stress on the stab sounds logical to me.....anybody else?

 

[texman]

Yes it puts stress, but MX is required to X-ray them. It cost money to do so. Got to keep the fares low.

 

[Flying the Line]

It's in the limitations under flight controls. In flight, do not use speedbrakes unless the flpas are fully retracted.

 

[b747dogg]

That's a SWA limitation, not Boeing.

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

Get used to learning how to descent plan then because you won't be using them at the same time in flight at SWA.

 

[Lear70]

It's in the limitations under flight controls. In flight, do not use speedbrakes unless the flpas are fully retracted.

As previously noted, that is NOT a Boeing limitation on the 737.

We do it on a daily basis when we get slam dunked going into ATL (midfield abeam the airport at 7,000' then told "expect a short approach" and they turn you just outside the marker). Doesn't have anything to do with being unable to properly descent plan, some airports just expect you to operate like that.

Additionally, the amber SPEEDBRAKES EXTENDED light on the forward main panel doesn't come on unless the speedbrakes are extended AND the Flaps are in a landing setting (15-40). That light doesn't come on with flaps 1, 2, 5, or 10 with the speedbrakes out and there isn't a noticeable increase in vibration until you get to Flaps 10 with the speedbrakes out.

Just curious why Southwest doesn't allow it on their NG's, if it's a carry-over from the Classics and they don't want to intermix procedures for simplicity in training and line ops or if they have another reason for it.

Thanks, sorry for jumping the shark with the thread, we now return you to your instructional preparation for surrendering Captain's authority to the gate agents and flight attendants.

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

Just curious why Southwest doesn't allow it on their NG's, if it's a carry-over from the Classics and they don't want to intermix procedures for simplicity in training and line ops or if they have another reason for it.

Doesn't really matter does it? Why don't you ask Bob on the first day of class. And while you're at it, complain about it a bunch. A lot of "but at the Tranny...." whining and , "Flying in the ATL is hhhaaaarrrrrrrrdddddddddd......." will get you far. No really, please do this! All of you!

 

[texman]

As previously noted, that is NOT a Boeing limitation on the 737.

We do it on a daily basis when we get slam dunked going into ATL (midfield abeam the airport at 7,000' then told "expect a short approach" and they turn you just outside the marker). Doesn't have anything to do with being unable to properly descent plan, some airports just expect you to operate like that.

Additionally, the amber SPEEDBRAKES EXTENDED light on the forward main panel doesn't come on unless the speedbrakes are extended AND the Flaps are in a landing setting (15-40). That light doesn't come on with flaps 1, 2, 5, or 10 with the speedbrakes out and there isn't a noticeable increase in vibration until you get to Flaps 10 with the speedbrakes out.

Just curious why Southwest doesn't allow it on their NG's, if it's a carry-over from the Classics and they don't want to intermix procedures for simplicity in training and line ops or if they have another reason for it.

Thanks, sorry for jumping the shark with the thread, we now return you to your instructional preparation for surrendering Captain's authority to the gate agents and flight attendants.

Lear from what I understand is the tail section has to be X-rayed if the speed breaks and flaps are used together,during certain phase checks. Cost money to do so. It's a company limitation. We use speed breaks and gear especially out west like ONT. And yes the give us the visual slam dunks all the time because the know we can do it. But hey saves us from going to the back of the line.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Get used to learning how to descent plan then because you won't be using them at the same time in flight at SWA.

No biggee.....if I get to a point where I'm needing speed brakes with flaps out I prefer the rubber speed brakes anyway.

Kermit...I plan on drinking a big glass of kool aid before indoc. ITDGD that is.

 

[vixin]

If your using them with flaps on a daily basis then your planning is poor at best. Yes I undertsand ATC can throw a curve ball once in a while. I still have never had the need to use speed brakes with flaps. Even for my poor planning. Or high at 6/7000 ft with a tight approach. Still can turn inside the marker without speedbrakes and be fine at 1000ft.

Love the guys that use them to keep the plane at 266/261 drag required. What the heck is that about?

Like Kermit said. Be sure you let Torti know how to fly the 737 in training. He will love to hear your input. By the way AT are allowed below 10,000ft now. Still dont trust us to use them Have been for a good while.

 

[GuppyWN]

If your using them with flaps on a daily basis then your planning is poor at best. Yes I undertsand ATC can throw a curve ball once in a while. I still have never had the need to use speed brakes with flaps. Even for my poor planning. Or high at 6/7000 ft with a tight approach. Still can turn inside the marker without speedbrakes and be fine at 1000ft.

I wish I was as good as you! I've got 10,000 hours in a 737 and there are times when I'd really like to have them......... but I do press the field

Gup

 

[vixin]

Who gives a rats behind how many hours you have gup? You sarcasm about being as good as me is assinine. If your reading comprehension was any good you would notice in your quote that I even stated "with my poor planning". It happens. Or ATC throws one at you. Flying this thing isnt rocket science. For someone to say they routinely use the speedbrakes makes me wonder if they even fly the plane. Unless they just like that rumble feeling. Like you said you still make it without using them.