A Second Grand Aire Accident

[SWA/FO]

The Falcon 20 has a range of 1000 miles... Looks like they were coming up from Del Rio, TX. If it was hot down there (which it always is) they probably did not have full fuel on board.

We use to takeoff and hop over to SAT to fill up.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

A pilot I know recently flew a Falcon 20 from Del Rio northbound. They stopped for fuel in Louisiana.

You can't take off from DRT with max cargo and full fuel in a Falcon 20.

Another pilot I know went from Laredo to STL, but Laredo has a longer runway, and you can take off from Laredo with max cargo and full fuel. They landed with 2700 lbs., which is enough for about 1+20 in cruise.

I was talking about this with other Falcon guys I know, and it doesn't seem possible to fly from DLR to STL with just about any type of cargo load, as you're so weight limited.

CLiff
GRB

 

[717driver]

Someone screwed up!

I flew that route often at my last job. We usually flew seat covers, which would bulk out the airplane but only weighed a couple thousands pounds at the most. We still went min fuel to SAT and gassed up there in many cases.

This $hitty job encourages the type of risk taking that creates these situations. Insist on fuel stops, lie about your fuel load, or just say NO when things aren't cool!

 

[JetPilot500]

As interesting as the names of the pilots are, I find it even MORE interesting that they both survived a "landing" in the Mississippi River!

I mean... We must presume that it was an intentional ditching, right? I wonder what the "mechanical problem" was that prompted them to break off the first approach.

Actually, Falcon 20's float quite well.

A Falcon 20G ditched in the North Atlantic a number of years back. It floated for days, from what I heard.

I guess they figured since it couldn't fly long legs, they better have a back up plan. Therefore the fuel tanks are pressurized which makes it float quite nicely. And we all thought it was for better positive fuel pressures, boy were we dumb!

JetPilot500

 

[banned username 2]

Actually, Falcon 20's float quite well.

A Falcon 20G ditched in the North Atlantic a number of years back. It floated for days, from what I heard.

This is true... they had to finally sink it, as they were worried it would a ship would hit it...

 

[TurboS7]

The pressure that is put on the pilot from operators, especially from that part of the country is unprecidented. You are to fly in all weather and do it with minimum fuel.(the idea is that carrying extra fuel burns more fuel, this comes from the airlines, but you have no support, no flight plan or burn just your judgement) The hero's are the one's who have the guts to land with the minimum and are encouraged by management. As anyone who studies accident causes and prevention knows this causes a trend and compromising of standards. The guys who says "no" does not get the flights, the guys who say yes gets all the flights and they are financially awarded. I once refused to fly into Mexico once because the weather was well below minimums. The dispatcher for one of these operators called me a real whimp and a bunch of other names. I just said since obviously you are qualified to drive a truck why don't you call your friends and get them up here to get my freight. Many times I have flown over Satillo since then and I know that I made the right decision, no questions asked.

 

[Typhoon1244]

That is very ironic for two airplanes from the same company to crash on the same day...

...but not unprecedented. On January 18, 1960, Capital Airlines lost a Viscount and a Constellation. The Viscount's crew was tooling around in icing conditions without any anti-ice turned on (sort of like the ATR at Roselawn) and lost two engines, then botched the restart, lost control and crashed. No survivors. The Constellation was an aborted takeoff that ran off the end, as I recall, but I'm not certain.

See the first chapter of Robert Serling's The Probable Cause for more information. Excellent book, though somewhat dated...I wish I still had a copy.

 

[pilotyip]

Not true in ever case

USA Jet DA-20 crews fly with Jepps data plan for enroute fuel burn and our crews are trained in the use of these flight plans.
At level off, they can predict with in about 200#'s their landing fuel at destination. We know just about exactly what fuel we need for a trip and are able to check our enroute fuel burn against know points along our route. We routinely fly non-stop at FL330 LRD into Canada, and know we will land with adequate fuel, if enroute you find you are burning more than planned for some reason, change in winds, change in crusie FL, etc. you land early and get gas, company says nothing.

 

[V-1]

Reminds me of a telephone interview I had with a jet freight operator (Learjet & Falcon 20), who I won't name. It went like this:

Interviewer: "We just got a call from a customer who wants us to fly from YIP to ELP in the Learjet to pick up some freight. You plan the flight and find you'll land with 30 minutes fuel remaining on the airplane. How long will it take you to get ready for the flight?"

Me: "Well I'll need a fuel truck first, since I don't have legal reserves for the flight."

Interviewer: "The airplane is already full of gas."

Me: "Then we'll have to make a fuel stop along the way."

Interviewer: "Oh, the weather is VFR everywhere."

Me: "So we're going to fly from YIP to ELP at 16,500 feet? Seems like that would burn even more fuel."

Interviewer: "Well, the customer needs us there non-stop. If we can't do it, they'll just call one of our competitors on the field and they will. We get these situations all the time."

I'm silent because I'm dumbfounded by this scenario. I'm thinking "If this is what they're asking me to do before I sign a two-year training contract, what the he11 will they ask me to do after I sign?"

Interviewer (after my silence): "You could always file IFR and takeoff, monitoring your fuel situation. If it looked like you weren't going to make it, you could always land at an airport along the way to refuel."

The interview pretty much fizzled out then. Two weeks later, I got the proverbial "Thanks for your interest, but we've identified candidates whose qualifications more closely match our needs." letter. Somehow I wasn't disappointed.

One finds oneself on a slippery slope when they start bending rules. Fortunately, I had competitive times for just about any job, short of working for a major airline, so I had other opportunities to examine. I look back today and am thankful I was smart enough to say no.

 

[TurboS7]

Since you went to name calling USA jet is not on the list..... Active Aero or whatever you want to call it.