A Question for Blue-Aid Drinkers?

[Dizel8]

You mean eroding by offering unlimited jumpseats to pilots and F/A's, by trying to have 20-22 days off a month, by not having a union, by having the EMB pilots on the same seniority list?

Or do you mean by having B-scales, treating express/RJ drivers like crap, by aggreing to give up pensions and allowing scabs into ALPA?

Honestly, I do not think it will be approved, so cool your jets. As far as being a tool, well, make that a capitalist tool, that wants max days off, while still making good money. SWA has one of the highest productivities out there, but like one of their pilots told me, they work hard and when they are off, they play hard. One leg out, one leg back all during normal hours sure sounds better than 16 hours of duty, 8 hrs of flying with 7-8 legs.

Start at 8 in the morning, fly to LGB arrive at 3 pm EST, an hour turn, leave at 4pm EST, be home by 9 EST. 13 hrs of duty, 11 hours of flying, 2 legs, 2 landings. I'll take it!

I prefer to be home and having 20-22 days off a month sounds like a good deal to me. Can almost do it now, due to int'l rules.

 

[Malibu]

I don't believe this was even brought up by top management. I for one would love to do this type of day. We are doing major studies on the effects of such a flight day. Actually, we are going to wear some type of body clock watch during red-eyes and day time transcons, and find out which are safer.
Why would we need ALPA? They would just charge us out the bung, then sell us out like they do to the rest of the industry.

 

[Wise Guy]

Wow

I use to give the JB guys the benefit of the doubt, but this is just unbelievable. That Blue Kool Aid must be more addictive than heroin. Seeking waivers to FAR's so they can work harder and hire less pilots...????

Surely not all of the JB guys can think this is a good idea. Then again, they're all gonna be rich off of their stock. Yeah, right.

 

[Dizel8]

Well Les,

I was not thinking we were comparing "equipment" here, but be that as it may.

So, lets think about this for a second, since you fly that "BIG" Boeing, you would perhpas fly across the pond. If so, most of those trips leave at around 8 or 9 pm, certainly know lots of guys who commute in on the same day, with a few hours to spare before they again report for duty. So their time awake is properly well beyong 16, now these people do not have a problem with that. It was their choice. I used to fly that "BIG" Douglas across the pond and many of those guys could not stay alert/awake due their lousy personal scheduling. However, if they were going to exceed their contract by a second, they would refuse, not FAR's but contract.

It works both ways, you know. Since we are required to be rested before a flight, perhaps the airlines should institute, that you have to be at your base at such a time, that you could get 8 hours of rest. I can only imagine the outcry over that one.

I do not know who you work for, nor do I care. I never intended or implied that your airline were better or worse, only you can, based upon your perception.

As far as hard won work rules, those are the ones you have in your contract, those are yours to keep and improve as you see fit. I believe, that having more days off a month, would be benificial to me and my life. I believe, that shorter duty time would be safer to me, I believe limitations on landings per day would be safer to me. You may not agree, the RJ drivers may not agree, ALPA may not agree and the FAA may not agree. It is a personal choice.

Wiseguy,

It would not change the amount of pilots needed, nor would it make you work "harder", as a matter of fact, hours per month would be the same, but number of days worked would decrease.

 

[Wise Guy]

Dizel, While I admire you greatly for your avtar, I'm begining to think you guys can't see the forest through the trees.

 

[General Lee]

That is seriously crazy. Why don't you just get a crew rest seat and a third pilot for extended flights? (ATA does that for the SFO/LAX turns to Hawaii) Any other rules you guys would like to change? How about being able to marry your sister? I bet you would.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Boeingman]

You mean eroding by offering unlimited jumpseats to pilots and F/A's, by trying to have 20-22 days off a month, by not having a union, by having the EMB pilots on the same seniority list?

And this has to do with what?

Or do you mean by having B-scales, treating express/RJ drivers like crap, by aggreing to give up pensions and allowing scabs into ALPA?

B scale? Like JB wages? RJ drivers like crap? Giving up pensions? what is JB's pension program? Scabs into ALPA? Well, a scab can losely be defined as an individual whom though their actions erodes pay and working conditions of the industry. Kind of like what you boys are doing today. And lest we forget. Many of the CAL scabs that are back into ALPA were former ALPA members.

Honestly, I do not think it will be approved, so cool your jets. As far as being a tool, well, make that a capitalist tool, that wants max days off, while still making good money. SWA has one of the highest productivities out there, but like one of their pilots told me, they work hard and when they are off, they play hard. One leg out, one leg back all during normal hours sure sounds better than 16 hours of duty, 8 hrs of flying with 7-8 legs.

Blah blah blah. The idea that you guys would even consider changing an FAR that already is ridiculous is not only unsafe, but extremely ignorant. And selfish I might add. You can also bet the rule will be exploited to include those 7 - 8 leg days.

Start at 8 in the morning, fly to LGB arrive at 3 pm EST, an hour turn, leave at 4pm EST, be home by 9 EST. 13 hrs of duty, 11 hours of flying, 2 legs, 2 landings. I'll take it!

I thought this was a daylight only ops? What about wx delays? MX , ATC? Or are you JB guys going to petition for a waiver for that as well? Home by 9? So you think you'll have a block time back from the west coast of 5 hours? Consistently?


I pref

prefer to be home and having 20-22 days off a month sounds like a good deal to me. Can almost do it now, due to int'l rules.

Soon, the thrill of the shiny new airplanes and expansion will be replaced with the cold hard reality that you're working more hours for less pay at a B scale airline with commuter work rules and no defined pension. Those days off will mean nothing when you're to exhausted to enjoy them.

Really and truly disgusting.

 

[Dizel8]

Boeingman,

Well, that was nice. I am starting to feel like your unwanted child, no wonder you never paid the alimony

Hmm, not sure where to begin, not sure I want to really. Suffice to say, you might want to check a few things, such as wages, work rules etc. Then perhaps you would see that jetBlue is a rather nice place to work. Many people that were furloughed or left majors on their own accord are actually loving it here. As far as jetBlue eroding pay, well, we are aligned pretty well with the middle of the industry, not the highest, far from the lowest. Days off and QOL is in the top I would say.

Now, I have not seen the proposal in it entirety, I am sure it would be very restrictive. And yes, you are quite right, I was perhaps not being clear when I said daylight ops, what the intent is to stay on a normal sleep pattern and body rhythm. You are indeed correct, that west to east in 5 hours would not always work, again, I have not seen the entire proposal, so cannot comment on what the rules re. that would be.

As far as shiny new planes go, I am sorry, but I have been doing this long enough, that hauling airplanes across the sky, while a great way to make a living, it not the end all.

Gen. Lee,

I think that law is already in effect down in Georgia

 

[BlueBusDriver]

........unbelievable !

The thought process of some of these posts are just out of this world.

If the jetBlue pilot group is in favor of a more productive duty day....why does this concern anyone not working for jetBlue?
If you think that your company might try to adopt these same ideas and you are so much against it....."speak up" to your management....our your unions, whichever you think will help you with your cause.

This is an exemption for jetBlue. Other companies have already applied for this same extension (go pester them with your wailing) and I could be mistaken (happens occaisionally)....but I believe one airline has already been granted this exemption and is already taking advantage of the more productive pairings.

Someone has even implied here that by pursuing this exemption, jetBlue is not having to hire more pilots than would normally be needed. You must be on furlough.....right? So are alot of people, but most would understand that productivity is something that both the pilots and management really strive for to keep our company profitable.

Just my 1/2 cent worth (IOU for the other 1 1/2 cents).

BBD

 

[General Lee]

Dizel8,

Wrong. That is not legal in Georgia---that is why we have to go to LA--or Lower Alabama to marry our sisters (plural too) down here!!!! Sue---Weeee!!! Our kid has 3 arms, with one growing out of her head.

Seriously though, please don't try to change FAR limits-----with bad wx and strong headwinds in the Winter----those days may be really long. If you want those same schedules---have a third pilot like ATA does on the Hawaii turns. That would save Jetblue money on hotel costs, and in return you would still get more days off. We sort of do that on a couple of routes---like ATL--Curacao on Saturday's only.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Freight Dog]

This whole thing is ridiculous.... You JB guys claim it's only for you, and not everyone else. Well, that'd be great if it were true, but ahhh... it won't be just for you. Step back a little and look at the effect on regionals Mesa had by signing their new contract. It snowballed throughout the industry. Think of what your exemption will do for everyone else.

Soon, it will become an industry standard. But then, I guarantee you it won't stop there. Your "daylight-only" will become modified. Then you'll be able to make 1 or 2 stops along the way. Then the next thing will be increasing the MAX from 100 hours to 120 hours a month like Part 135, AND YOU GUYS WILL BE DOING IT WITH SMILES! When they make 1400 hours per year rule, you will still be drunk from your Blue Aid. The other managements will follow suit, and voila... work rules out the window, everyone's bids being built to 100 hours AT LEAST, pilots getting furloughed as a result of everyone flying around 100 hours. That's EXACTLY what's going on at Hawaiian next door - their senior pilots are picking up open time left and right while the Company furloughed more than a 1/4 of their seniority list. Then THEY ALSO want the 8-hour exemption so they can fly mainland turns which will lead to even more furloughs.

You guys are opening a BIG can of worms. You want to clean planes? Fine. You want to fly the FAR's? Fine. You want to work till you drop with no defined retirement? Fine. But DON'T SCREW WITH THIS!!!!!!! Please!

 

[Dizel8]

Gen.Lee,

Yeah, I always heard that LA was bad

As far as the FAR's are concerned, jetBlue would get an exemption, there would be no change to the FAR's. Just like some airlines can designate two alternates, in case of weather not being cooperative and being less than standard. How some airlines can do rereleases. Or use less than standard landing mins with the use of HUD's.

As far, as to using three pilots, that may indeed be what we end up with, only time will tell.

 

[Maj]

Pre-emptive caveat: I'm no kool-aid addict, but I am DEFINITELY supportive of the success and prosperity of my employer (JB) and have faith in the management since they pay my bills.

Having said that, I would MUCH rather fly a few LGB turns intead of some of the current "legal" pairings that involve day sleeps followed by redeyes. I look at this as an opportunity to increase productivity (credit hours) while improving my quality of life (days off). Last time I checked, this job was pretty friggin' easy (99.44% of the time).

B-Scale wages? I guess I'm too young to remember the "good ol' days" when knucklehead pilots made as much as doctors (I think that's already been beaten to death on another thread!). In the meantime, I'll have to settle on a paltry $12K/month, averaging 15 days off/month, and the freedom and time to work a couple of side gigs so I can pay for my new tricked-out European luxury sedan. After all, there are more opportunities in life besides flying. So if you don't like your company or its' policies, I suggest trying some of them!

Rah Rah Rah...Blah Blah Blah.

Life's too short to be bitter and paranoid.

 

[Boeingman]

So if you don't like your company or its' policies, I suggest trying some of them!

I am sure you meant trying to change some of them. If you are happy flying your ass off for your wages fine. It is not a question of bemoaning your company or it's policies, but a blatent attempt to change a FAR that has an unlimited potential for abuse. You guys are more in dreamland than I thought if you don't think other managements will exploit this rule. The FAR's are a joke as they stand now and you want to relax them even further?

I guess that you are all so enamored to be flying for a living you can't see the true consequences and ramifications of your actions for the rest of your peers within the industry.

The race to the bottom continues.

 

[Maj]

BM,

"After all, there are more opportunities in life besides flying. So if you don't like your company or its' policies, I suggest trying some of them!"

No, I meant to try some of the other opportunities besides flying. Again, I think that we're trying to get relief from the FAR, not to change it. If your company follows suit (if it's even approved) and you are opposed well I guess I feel for you.

Race to the bottom? I guess that's what you call enjoying your job and your coworkers. I call it having a good attitude.

Cheers,
Maj

 

[Boeingman]

Pandoras Box

BM,

No, I meant to try some of the other opportunities besides flying. Again, I think that we're trying to get relief from the FAR, not to change it. If your company follows suit (if it's even approved) and you are opposed well I guess I feel for you.

Relief from the FAR is the same as changing it in my book. And I think everyone elses as well. Or is it like just being a little pregnant? So by saying I feel for you is the same as tough titties right? I mean who cares about years and years of negotiated contracts to be put under new pressure in favor of relaxing already flimsy crew and duty time regulations. I care for one and I'll bet I am not the only one.

And incidently, our mangement couldn't follow suit arbitrarily, but it would be one more thing they would come to us, hat in their hands, crying they have to do this to remain competitive.

Let me put the ball back in your court. Why doesnt the JB pilots get some collective spine and say NO to your stand up overnights, instead of changing the rules for everyone else?
And don't kid yourselves, change they will.


As far as outside job issues....trust me, I am the last one that needs a thought about that. I run an extremely lucrative business one that makes this whole airline thing a side show.

Race to the bottom? I guess that's what you call enjoying your job and your coworkers. I call it having a good attitude.

Cheers,
Maj

No, the race to the bottom implys another weakening of long standing contractual benefits vis a vis FAR limitations. Now we have a group of gung ho company boys and girls that want to go one step further and erode, as I said, already flimsy work rules and regs.

Having a good attiude does not mean bending over for mangement and in turn porking your fellow pilots by precedent setting changes to FAR work rules and duty time limitations.

It is also concerning that the JB pilots do not see this for what it is a fatigue related safety issue.

 

[G4G5]

What about doing something positive for the profession?

How about demanding a relief pilot, like all of the other airlines do?

 

[Dizel8]

The FAR's as they are now, is a fattigue relating safety issue. How staying on the same circadian rhythm will be worse is beyond me.

 

[Boeingman]

The FAR's as they are now, is a fattigue relating safety issue. How staying on the same circadian rhythm will be worse is beyond me.

Exactly. So don't petition for a change to the flight and duty times and tell your management no to stand up overnights.

I don't know your background but one thing is true I heard years ago, the union is there to protect us from ourselves. This is a shining example.

 

[General Lee]

I know what would be even better for you JB guys----see if you can fly 4 consecutive transcons in one full 24 hour day---and then you would only have to go to work 3 days a month!!! Or, you could pick up another days worth (4 or 5 legs)---and get that full 100 hours of flying in just 4 days!!! Think of the productivity! Just load up on ludes and Starbucks------get wired!!!! You can do it----I think you can!! Go for it---you can then go back home and sleep for 27 hours straight, get up and beat the kids, and then go play golf for 5 days straight. That sounds wonderful. Why not? You can get an exemption for just you guys, because we all know that you guys can handle it.

Bye Bye--General Lee