A new way for ALPA to collect dues

[pipejockey]

Using the FedEx pilot is actually in your favor.

How so?

I've been furloughed 2x and displaced 2x since 2000. the last seven years have not been fair. I just choose not to be emotional about it all...

No, you just let alpo pi** all over you and then buy it when they tell you it's just raining.

I am actually on your side on this... the thing of it is... you have no comprehension of what is going on here.

Yes I do. You explained it a few posts back, even though I already knew. But thanks. What I comprehend is that an organization whose sole purpose for existing should be to protect an airline pilots way of life, quality of life, and at the very least, keeping our earning power steady with the cost of living, has done nothing but sit by idly while in a mere 7 years our earning power has been cut in half. And then they have the gall to try to extort more money from us by assessing dues on 401K contributions by the pilots whose only retirement plan is the 401K. Quite despicable. And they have the audacity to do it behind our backs. If it were not for this thread I would have found out about it once it had been approved behind closed doors by the crooks who run this organization.

Spare me the emotional tirade. Take a nap. Think. Listen. Act.

Emotional? you're d*mn right!!! We have our employers telling us we are overpaid and must work more for less, contribute more for our benefits...etc. We have to hear the passengers telling us how THEY are nickel and dimed when they are paying half of what they should be for fares. Now we have alpo, telling us we must sacrifice more of what we don't have, which is cold hard cash, so they can continue to do such a bang up job "protecting" and "taking back" our profession, all the while I am living hand to mouth and paycheck to paycheck wondering if my job will even be around much longer. In a word DESPICABLE!!!

Please everyone, get the word out to all the other crewmembers you fly with and encounter on the job and make our voices heard on this. We will not be contributing yet more cash to this broken organization.

 

[pipejockey]

no, I read the thread...I just don't see how not paying dues is going to make the situation better. If you, instead of starting the campaign to get everyone to stop paying dues, started a campaign to get all of those people to call their status reps and tell them emphatically to vote no, the vote would probably fail by a large margain. By not paying dues to our union, all you would be doing is weakening our position and putting yourself at risk for termination.

I agree we are losing earning power every year, but who's fault do you really think that is? What specifically do you expect ALPA to do differently? Do you think that our situation might have something to do with the Bush administration and their "there will be no airline strikes during my term" position?

If you read about ALPA's history you'll notice that ALPA's success is critically linked to who's in office in Washington. As we are governed by the RLA and the government decides when we can strike, it is pretty obvious that a strike / labor success is more unlikely when you have someone that hates airline labor in office (ie Bush/McCain).

I intend to do everything in my power at the menial line pilot position to put a stop to this, but I am merely encouraging everybody here and now that come fall if this is approved alpo will be receiving less in dues, thereby encouraging them to go back to "defending and taking back our profession" if they ever were doing that between lining their pockets with our dues.

And btw, there was an airline strike under Bush's term...Comair. And they got a half way decent contract as far as regionals go back 7 years ago. What ashame that they'd probably be thrilled to have that contract back even though it was 7 years ago.

What do I expect alpo to do differently? How about for 1, not putting these ridiculous TA's before the pilots for vote. We all know too many pilots are too weak and afraid to not just accept what management offers them. If these TA's that have come up for vote recently, and approved, are the best alpo has to offer, then they are not worth what I flush down the toilet everyday!

Just look at ASA's recently signed contract...PATHETIC!! Now watch all the defenders of the profession come out and tell me how great they think the contract is and all the improvements that were made. Yes, I agree many improvements were made, but that just shows you what a world of hurt we are in when that pos is considered an improvement. Let me make clear, I am not knocking the ASA people, I merely think they deserve FAR better as we all do.

 

[eaglesview]

I think there is a lot that goes into a merger to consider, and simply using one reasoning in making up a list is ridiculous. To have a DOH list at Airways would have ended up with around 10% of west pilots in the top 3000, with the bottom 2000 pilots being 90% west. I don't care what reasoning you give, that IS a staple in my opinion. The nic award most likely would not have been so harsh to the east pilots had they not been so demanding in their negotiating positions.

The reason the list would be weighted toward the east is because they have been around longer. To be honest with you I really don't care as long as there is no LCC/UAL merger which will be bad for all involved. However just for fun I carry the nic with me and show the guys I am paired with the results. By the end of the discussion they are almost all for DOH and agree with the USAir pilots position to dump ALPA.

 

[PCL_128]

By the end of the discussion they are almost all for DOH and agree with the USAir pilots position to dump ALPA.

Or that's just what they tell you to get you to shut up with your ridiculous ramblings.

 

[eaglesview]

Or that's just what they tell you to get you to shut up with your ridiculous ramblings.

Just a bit testy don't you think. Why do you give a hoot when last I checked Air Tran was not involved.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

How so?




No, you just let alpo pi** all over you and then buy it when they tell you it's just raining.



Yes I do. You explained it a few posts back, even though I already knew. But thanks. What I comprehend is that an organization whose sole purpose for existing should be to protect an airline pilots way of life, quality of life, and at the very least, keeping our earning power steady with the cost of living, has done nothing but sit by idly while in a mere 7 years our earning power has been cut in half. And then they have the gall to try to extort more money from us by assessing dues on 401K contributions by the pilots whose only retirement plan is the 401K. Quite despicable. And they have the audacity to do it behind our backs. If it were not for this thread I would have found out about it once it had been approved behind closed doors by the crooks who run this organization.



Emotional? you're d*mn right!!! We have our employers telling us we are overpaid and must work more for less, contribute more for our benefits...etc. We have to hear the passengers telling us how THEY are nickel and dimed when they are paying half of what they should be for fares. Now we have alpo, telling us we must sacrifice more of what we don't have, which is cold hard cash, so they can continue to do such a bang up job "protecting" and "taking back" our profession, all the while I am living hand to mouth and paycheck to paycheck wondering if my job will even be around much longer. In a word DESPICABLE!!!

Please everyone, get the word out to all the other crewmembers you fly with and encounter on the job and make our voices heard on this. We will not be contributing yet more cash to this broken organization.

ALPA is not assesing your 401k.

You still don't understand.

Your last paragraph is entertaining.... you don't even know how address this issue. I think you know how to fly a jet very well...

But when it comes to managing your career..... well....

Did I tell you... that you fly jets really well...


If you want to stop Bad ALPA... I can help you.... will you listen and leave the emotion somewhere else?

 

[pipejockey]

ALPA is not assesing your 401k.

You still don't understand.

What don't YOU understand? I contribute 10% of my pay to my 401K. Currently 90% of may pay is asessed dues while the other 10% is not. Are you playing games with me or something? This is the last time I address your assertion that I don't understand what is going on. Bottom line...alpo is extorting yet more money from the working man to line their pockets with...err I mean to take back and defend our profession with

 

[WalterSobchak]

Jesus Tapdancin' Christ, people! We've gone 15 pages...and not one person has said it yet...

MESA SUCKS!

with apologies to the Majors board regulars...it's a "Regionals forum thing"...

 

[Bringupthebird]

The reason the list would be weighted toward the east is because they have been around longer. To be honest with you I really don't care as long as there is no LCC/UAL merger which will be bad for all involved. However just for fun I carry the nic with me and show the guys I am paired with the results. By the end of the discussion they are almost all for DOH and agree with the USAir pilots position to dump ALPA.

So how do you go about explaining that you are currently at the bottom of your company's list but you think you should be in the middle and that your windfall should come at the expense of someone whose only crime was coming to work each day at an airline that wasn't bankrupt?

Will you be as proud of your fellow USAPA members when pilots are furloughed as a direct result of the labor toxicity USAPA has perpetuated and which prevents LCC from participating in needed consolidation?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What don't YOU understand? I contribute 10% of my pay to my 401K. Currently 90% of may pay is asessed dues while the other 10% is not. Are you playing games with me or something? This is the last time I address your assertion that I don't understand what is going on.

Perhaps you do understand... you just have a problem expressing the information properly...thus giving the impression you don't.

So what is going to be the difference in dues for you personally? IOW how much more per paycheck will give to the profession?

Do you want to pay your fair share? Or should the FedEx guys pay the same percentage on a higher value?

Just curious if you are special or if you want to pull your fair share of the load?

Keep in mind... I am on your side... I don't think ALPA should be doing this right now... but I do understand why they are doing it.... do you? Can you maturely understand and express why ALPA is doing this...

Bottom line...alpo is extorting yet more money from the working man to line their pockets with...err I mean to take back and defend our profession with

Extortion... that maybe be how you feel, however, democracy is making the change. Do you have the democratic skills to stop it?

If you need help... just ask.....

 

[Turtle21]

Recalling Prater will not do anything. The US Airways pilots have the right idea. ...

Hear, hear!

We all know that these new ALPA policies would be no issue if ALPA was really a union and were doing what the they claim to be able to do (and are paid to do.)

The blow back couldn't happen to a better group of leaders.:laugh:

 

[Turtle21]

.....

 

[eaglesview]

So how do you go about explaining that you are currently at the bottom of your company's list but you think you should be in the middle and that your windfall should come at the expense of someone whose only crime was coming to work each day at an airline that wasn't bankrupt?

Will you be as proud of your fellow USAPA members when pilots are furloughed as a direct result of the labor toxicity USAPA has perpetuated and which prevents LCC from participating in needed consolidation?

The "toxi stew" at LCC is the nic. It leaves a third party with no logical way of integrating the seniority list. Do I go behind the guy hires after me or before the guy hired before me? Both options make no sense. Thankfully the deal appers to be off so we (UAL) won't have to worry about it.

 

[Turtle21]

...IOW how much more per paycheck will give to the profession?

.....

To the profession?

Of all the ideals of ALPA, that is the one they should have never abandoned.

 

[pipejockey]

So what is going to be the difference in dues for you personally? IOW how much more per paycheck will give to the profession?

Do you want to pay your fair share? Or should the FedEx guys pay the same percentage on a higher value?

Just curious if you are special or if you want to pull your fair share of the load?

Can you maturely understand and express why ALPA is doing this...

The difference in dues is not the point. BTW, when does the profession start giving back to me? This is supposed to be a livelihood is it not?

FedEx guys are paid a decent living, well above what is needed to put a modest roof over your head and the basic necessities. They are not living paycheck to paycheck as I am. They can well afford to pull more of the load, plus the reason they are paying dues on their 401K contributions is due to the fact that they have an A AND B fund. I don't! You care to still talk about fair?

And for your last question as to why alpo is doing this....they are greedy crooks who just can't stomach the loss of the USAir dues so they stick it to the folks that are unfortunately stuck with this abysmal union which is merely a shell of its former self. They are no different than airline management as far as Im concerned. My wish is that other airlines give them the boot as well!

 

[800Dog]

The difference in dues is not the point. BTW, when does the profession start giving back to me? This is supposed to be a livelihood is it not?

FedEx guys are paid a decent living, well above what is needed to put a modest roof over your head and the basic necessities. They are not living paycheck to paycheck as I am. They can well afford to pull more of the load, plus the reason they are paying dues on their 401K contributions is due to the fact that they have an A AND B fund. I don't! You care to still talk about fair?

And for your last question as to why alpo is doing this....they are greedy crooks who just can't stomach the loss of the USAir dues so they stick it to the folks that are unfortunately stuck with this abysmal union which is merely a shell of its former self. They are no different than airline management as far as Im concerned. My wish is that other airlines give them the boot as well!

Have you considered going to work at FedEx?

 

[PCL_128]

........

 

[maru657]

Perhaps it's time for a new union. One more representative of it's members. I'd say that first off it's got to be nationwide, with an immediate push for a nationwide seniority list and very strong political representation. strong enough that any politician that votes against labor finds himself or herself not only on the street but being investigated for every possible crime there is. Furthermore any pilot that votes against the interest of the group is forced out of the union and profession. Then no more security checks for pilots or flight crews and no more random screening either. A union strong enough to shut aviation down in the U.S.
Naaaa, not a chance.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Perhaps it's time for a new union. One more representative of it's members. I'd say that first off it's got to be nationwide, with an immediate push for a nationwide seniority list and very strong political representation. strong enough that any politician that votes against labor finds himself or herself not only on the street but being investigated for every possible crime there is. Furthermore any pilot that votes against the interest of the group is forced out of the union and profession. Then no more security checks for pilots or flight crews and no more random screening either. A union strong enough to shut aviation down in the U.S.
Naaaa, not a chance.

Sounds interesting, Threats and Intimidation

Very effective, and sounds like the Teamsters union of the '60s and '70s. And, they were a very effective union then. If you went against the Teamsters back then, not only were you thrown out, but you better make sure to have someone (preferably someone you didn't like) 'start your car.' And, if a politician went again them, they would demand they be investigated for crimes, if they could buy them off, they would just 'frame' them for a crime. As I said, a very effective union back then, but then again, the 'muscle' for that effectiveness came from orgainized crime.

And, the union leaders were very highly paid and ended up 'stealing' the union's money.......well, in that sense, I guess they can be compared to alpa.

But, on a more serious note; I do agree with you that a new union is necessary. A union that is more receptive of the membership. NO union member should ever have to take a pay cut, before their leaders take a pay cut, lead by example. We keep saying that corporate leaders should take a pay cut before they ask their employees to take one, should we demand the same of our union leaders??

All of the top leadership of alpa get $9850./mth. just for 'living expenses' in addition to their $300,000./yr. salary. Would expect them to have to pay for 'rent/mortgage, utilities, a car and driver, etc' out of a mere $300,000, and expect to get by, of course not.

PD

 

[eaglesview]

ALPA,s latest screw up. Just three months ago ALPA signed a contract with ASTAR. My understanding is there was an 11th hour amendment to get rid of the scope clause which ALPA agreed to and then signed. Isn’t it funny how on the ALPA website they do not mention this fact. Now ASTAR pilots are looking at losing their jobs as DHL shifts their lift needs to UPS. One wonders if this union even wants to survive. They remind me of UAL management, pathetic!

500 more due paying members could be gone. Hold on to your wallets, or better yet just say no.

 

[maru657]

I posted earlier about the need for a new union but of course that was tongue in cheek. ALPA's leadership actually represents the members and U.S. pilot group as a whole far better than they realize, and that's not a complement. ALPA members turned down the opportunity for a national seniority list a LONG time ago in favor of short term interests. They ignore national politics with the exception of the occasional obligatory anti French or Democratic remark. Most gripe about the work conditions or insecurity of their jobs without a clue as to why they are so insecure or why work conditions are so hard. I would not seriously espouse getting rid of ALPA, But I would recommend a strong effort to be involved to the extent of haunting ALPA offices. I know of a former LEC who literally had a fist fight with the MEC on the floor of a national conference. HE was involved. Just don't tell me you support labor and then vote for anti-labor candidates.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA,s latest screw up. Just three months ago ALPA signed a contract with ASTAR. My understanding is there was an 11th hour amendment to get rid of the scope clause which ALPA agreed to and then signed. Isn’t it funny how on the ALPA website they do not mention this fact. Now ASTAR pilots are looking at losing their jobs as DHL shifts their lift needs to UPS. One wonders if this union even wants to survive. They remind me of UAL management, pathetic!

500 more due paying members could be gone. Hold on to your wallets, or better yet just say no.

Your understanding is completely incorrect. All outstanding scope issues were resolved with that agreement, and the pilots overwhelmingly approved the TA. It was a good contract. Unfortunately, no US pilot group can have scope over flying that is owned by a German corporation. DHL is able to eliminate all ASTAR and ABX feed if they so choose. No scope language will change that. ASTAR scope only covers ASTAR flying. They are unable to scope DHL flying, which is owned by a German corporation.

 

[eaglesview]

Your understanding is completely incorrect. All outstanding scope issues were resolved with that agreement, and the pilots overwhelmingly approved the TA. It was a good contract. Unfortunately, no US pilot group can have scope over flying that is owned by a German corporation. DHL is able to eliminate all ASTAR and ABX feed if they so choose. No scope language will change that. ASTAR scope only covers ASTAR flying. They are unable to scope DHL flying, which is owned by a German corporation.

Well you make an interesting point. I will have to do more research on this. Unfortunately the end result will be the same,500 less dues paying members.
You know me I’ll get back to you.

 

[pipejockey]

Have you considered going to work at FedEx?

HAHAHA!!! Yeah, me and about 60,000 other airline pilots. Unless you are a good ole boy from some squadron, or know everybody and their brother who flies for FedEx, or of course a woman or minority, you have no chance.

A union strong enough to shut aviation down in the U.S.

Thats all we need to do. Problem is too many pu**ies satisfied with the status quo.

All of the top leadership of alpa get $9850./mth. just for 'living expenses' in addition to their $300,000./yr. salary.

This is absolutely unconscionable and should be considered a crime, akin to stealing from the membership. These scumbags oughta be strung up for their crimes, or at least taken out to the "learning tree" if ya know what I mean!

As I said, a very effective union back then, but then again, the 'muscle' for that effectiveness came from organized crime.

Ahh, the good ole days. Now the organized crime has moved from the streets to the House of Rep, the Senate and the White House!! We have to let these union clowns know who is in charge, and the answer to that is us, the membership where the all the money comes from. It's time to turn off the spigot, and cut down their money tree!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The difference in dues is not the point. BTW, when does the profession start giving back to me? This is supposed to be a livelihood is it not?

Yeah..... let's talk about that...

What have you given to the profession that you expect a return on it?

Please don't tell me you put on the uniform and fly to ATP standards and you say good bye to the folks and you wear your hat.....

That is expected. You don't get anything in return for doing something that you agreed to and is expected of you...

A profession means service. It doesn't mean you get served. It means you serve the profession. And the profession serves the betterment of the public.

Anyone can show up and fly the jet to standard. Bug deal. The question is... what are you doing that places value on the profession so that you may negotiate a fair to better than average wage?

FedEx guys are paid a decent living, well above what is needed to put a modest roof over your head and the basic necessities. They are not living paycheck to paycheck as I am. They can well afford to pull more of the load, plus the reason they are paying dues on their 401K contributions is due to the fact that they have an A AND B fund. I don't! You care to still talk about fair?

I told you before... life is not fair. Instead of wating around for someone else to make your life better, why don't you make our profession better.

There are plenty of guys in the same financial boat as you... yet they volunteer their time to the profession to make it better.

Your attitude defeats their work to make your life better...

And for your last question as to why alpo is doing this....they are greedy crooks who just can't stomach the loss of the USAir dues so they stick it to the folks that are unfortunately stuck with this abysmal union which is merely a shell of its former self. They are no different than airline management as far as Im concerned. My wish is that other airlines give them the boot as well!

Once again... you have no desire to address this issue... you just want to be mad. I've told you over and over, I can help you stop this... but you don't want to ask... cause you don't want to work for betterment... you just want to be served... and mad..


Oh... you may have the ability to mask your poor professional attitude in a FX interview... but for the most part FedEx hires pilots that serve the profession.... not those who expect to be served. All the ACPs at FedEx are ALPA members....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

HAHAHA!!! Yeah, me and about 60,000 other airline pilots. Unless you are a good ole boy from some squadron, or know everybody and their brother who flies for FedEx, or of course a woman or minority, you have no chance.

More of that quality professional attitude...

Thats all we need to do. Problem is too many pu**ies satisfied with the status quo.

You are confusing me... it is ALPA or the members?

This is absolutely unconscionable and should be considered a crime, akin to stealing from the membership. These scumbags oughta be strung up for their crimes, or at least taken out to the "learning tree" if ya know what I mean!

Let me guess... too many pussies satisfied with the status quo? So is it your fellow pilot or ALPA?

Ahh, the good ole days. Now the organized crime has moved from the streets to the House of Rep, the Senate and the White House!! We have to let these union clowns know who is in charge, and the answer to that is us, the membership where the all the money comes from. It's time to turn off the spigot, and cut down their money tree!

Who is we?

 

[pipejockey]

Please don't tell me you put on the uniform and fly to ATP standards and you say good bye to the folks and you wear your hat.....

I am not required to wear a hat. And yes I do fly to ATP standards. As far as saying goodbye to the people? HA!! Most of them don't pay anywhere near enough for me to bother with!

That is expected. You don't get anything in return for doing something that you agreed to and is expected of you...

A profession means service. It doesn't mean you get served. It means you serve the profession. And the profession serves the betterment of the public.

What?? This is my livelihood. I not only expect to get something in return, I demand it!! Although my demands fall on deaf ears. Are you saying you work for free? The whole point of having a job is to get money in return to live on correct? And to what extent do you feel we should "better" the public considering the joke they pay these days for our services? Maybe if they showed a willingness to pay a fair fare(no pun intended) that allows us to earn a nice living, I'd be willing to concern myself the service they receive. As the old saying goes, you get what you pay for...no?

Anyone can show up and fly the jet to standard. Bug deal. The question is... what are you doing that places value on the profession so that you may negotiate a fair to better than average wage?

So I ask you, what did we do to devalue the profession that warrants the despicably low pay we currently receive? All we did was allow our earning power to plummet from 1978 in order to help our companies survive, all the while thinking we'd be rewarded when profits returned. But consistent profits never returned, nor will this industry ever show consistent profits. And furthermore, what kind of value are you talking about? Our wonderful companies have taken away every luxury imaginable to the passengers. All we can do as pilots anymore is get them to their destinations safely. For these fares, thats all they deserve.

I told you before... life is not fair. Instead of wating around for someone else to make your life better, why don't you make our profession better.

There are plenty of guys in the same financial boat as you... yet they volunteer their time to the profession to make it better.

Your attitude defeats their work to make your life better...

How do you know I don't? I can proudly say I have never, EVER, voted yes to a contract that contained a pay cut, even when it possibly meant my job. Can you say the same? Is that not an attempt to make the profession better? And as far as alpo goes, I wouldn't volunteer the time of day to those a**clowns considering the bang up job they have done defending this once fine profession that our fathers and grandfathers enjoyed. Now it is just about an embarrassment. Thanks alpo. with special consideration to their partners in crime southworst. What a 1-2 knockout punch!!

All the ACPs at FedEx are ALPA members....

Well thats quite enlightening! As FedEx is an alpo carrier I am not surprised

 

[pipejockey]

You are confusing me... it is ALPA or the members?

It is ALL of the big wigs at alpo and many of their members.

Who is we?

All airline crew members and all of its labor workforce for that matter!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

this once fine profession that our fathers and grandfathers enjoyed. Now it is just about an embarrassment. Thanks alpo!!

Can you provide specifics about how our fine profession was?