a MAJOR announcement @ SkyWest

[Don]

I’m a little embarrassed to admit I read this thread but in any case;

“…Regionals are for building time to move to the majors, always have been and
always will be…”

I’m not arguing one point or another, I just thought I’d mention that I just got the new edition of flying and is an article in it that talks about regional airlines being a final career destination. I haven’t read the whole article yet so I don’t have much else to say about it.

It looks like they have last month's edition online at http://www.flyingmag.com/ so I’m guessing that if you wait a week or two you will find the article there.

 

[Russ]

PCL
I hope your young enough to weather the storm and get picked up in the 4 to 8 years it will take for it to happen. Some of us are not. I am 38 now and the current situation dictates I make the best of where I am at, flying an RJ. Don't take this personel, but I am not going to put your goals ahead of mine. Many will make a career here at the regionals. I am not prepared to have boundries placed on my advancement to further young fellas(presuming that fits you) like yourself. If inthe current situation regionals end up flying 70/90 seaters or larger than so be it. Let that determination come from the market not from some old boy network that handsomely benefits only the few.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL
I hope your young enough to weather the storm and get picked up in the 4 to 8 years it will take for it to happen. Some of us are not. I am 38 now and the current situation dictates I make the best of where I am at, flying an RJ. Don't take this personel, but I am not going to put your goals ahead of mine. Many will make a career here at the regionals. I am not prepared to have boundries placed on my advancement to further young fellas(presuming that fits you) like yourself. If inthe current situation regionals end up flying 70/90 seaters or larger than so be it. Let that determination come from the market not from some old boy network that handsomely benefits only the few.

Yes, I am young enough to have a career at the majors someday down the road. However, I have 2 friends in my crashpad that are in their 40s and will probably have to make Pinnacle their career airline.

If you want to stay at a regional for your entire career (or have to because of age), then I have no problem with that. We should fight for the best pay rates, work rules, and retirement that we can get at the regionals. That doesn't mean that we should try to take mainline flying and get larger and larger aircraft. We can negotiate retirement, pay, and workrules on smaller aircraft that don't violate mainline scope language. We don't have to eliminate scope in order to get decent careers at the regionals.

 

[wil]

If mainline has a case then why not let the RJDC lawyers represent them as well? Same thing isn't it? Surely they good represent 100% of both parties and their interests!

 

[rjcap]

601pilot

I'm glad you are in the minority here at

What minority is that ???

 

[46Driver]

I gotta agree with Russ. I'm in my late 30's and the prospects of ever getting to a major look dimmer with every passing day. Therefore, the best thing to do (for me and those in the same boat) is to make my regional as successful as it can be: both with more planes and with larger planes (70 seat, 90 seat, 717's. etc..). I think Dante said it best: better to rule in hell then serve in heaven....

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I think that people need to consider that fact that if the major's pilots had been stronger on scope years ago, you could have all been flying those rjs for mainline. Instead, ALPA (and other pilot groups) erred, and allowed outsourcing, which has led to far fewer opportunities at the majors.

Now it seems that people want us to repeat that mistake with large airplanes. What foresight! Can you not see the future ramifications? Apparently, not only are we not learning from history, we are not learning from the present!

Rather than "ruling in hell," shouldn't the union concentrate of efforts to create more openings in heaven?

 

[~~~^~~~]

ALPA needs to consider that as a result of their past errors there are now thousands of ALPA members in "hell" who are a part of the same integrated transportation system.

Fly Delta Jets, we have to be part of the solution. You can not simply scope us out of existence without our participation.

Airlines have bought smaller airlines since EL Cord started his version of alter ego. ALPA came up with the merger and fragmentation policy and it worked for pilots flying F27's at Northeast, pilots at Western and ATR pilots at Ransome. The only difference is that now your Delta and your MEC have conspired to create an apartied system that built a wall around heaven.

We remembered the lessons learned by our progenitors - we have been reminding you of all the perils of alter ego.

If is your MEC that forced the paradigm shift. By being arrogant and egocentric enough to build a wall to keep out the undesireables. If is your MEC that changed the Constitution and Bylaws to redefine "operational integration" and it is your MEC that misrepresented the matter at the 2000 BOD meeting.

You say your MEC cant achieve one list. I'm telling you they never wanted to and don't want to now. They want to isolate and destroy. You tell me - who has forgot the lessons our union was founded on.

Build a wall that takes them in - inclusive scope.

~~~^~~~

 

[46Driver]

FDJs,
I think you are absolutely correct - if ALPA years ago had mandated that all that all jet flying be done by the major airline, we wouldn't be in this problem. However, the technology improved (RJ's) faster than ALPA could react (fighting battles with old tactics but new technology makes business, like war, very bloody) - in other words, management had a quicker OODA loop (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act). Once the genie was out of the bottle, there was no going back.
In my case, a staple to the bottom of either of our 2 major partner (DAL and UAL) would be a disaster. The prospect of seniority number 10 or 15 years down the road is in no way compensation for being a regional F.O. for the next decade +. I would much rather be a 70 seat RJ captain making $100+ a year with a great schedule (quality of life over money) than making $130+ a year as a mainline F.O. commuting to sit reserve. Someone much wiser than me said that "where a man stands is usually determined by where he sits..."

 

[General Lee]

This all could have been cleared up a long time ago if ASA/Comair didn't want DOH seniority. That was the big sticking point back then. Dan Ford and Capt Lawson could never see themselves as junior MD88 FO's (even though it would pay more), and that is what is so dangerous for everyone else. They are only thinking about themselves and the other 300 senior cronies around them. They don't care about the rest of you. Same goes for the senior ASA guys. IF they put a "staple" to a vote----most everyone would vote for it (assuming the Iraq thing is over and the economy gets better---and the furloughs returned..) Do you think they would do that when they know that they are not in the majority? No way. Instead, they will try to fight for the senior guys, knowing full well that they never want to be in the FO's seat again.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[46Driver]

General Lee,
After seeing the trickle up, flow down results of Coex and American Eagle, none of the pilots I have talked to at ACA want a flow through with anybody. Also, a staple locks you in with a company. You may want to go to FedEx, UPS, Southwest, etc but until you upgrade and build the required PIC time, you go nowhere. Meanwhile, the furloughed mainline guys come in and take RJ captain slots while you are either trapped as a regional F.O. or are pushed to the streets.
It is a different situation if you are wholly owned (ASA, Comair) vice being a contractor (ACA, SkyWest) but the end result is the same - all of your eggs are in 1 basket if there is a staple (and no, I am not even remotely asking for a DOH intergration - just the right to remain as a separate entity without Super Seniority pushed down my throat.)

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

General,

While I do agree that there were people who had DOH aspirations, and I agree that DALPA was worried about their members seniority (rightfully so), I don't agree that "this could have been cleared up a long time ago."

The three MEC's can have any agreement they want, they can hold hands and sing "Kumbaya", they can agree to merge the lists, and it wouldn't make any difference. People like fins like to blame the current situation on DALPA's actions during the PID prceedings, while ignoring the reality that Delta wouldn't then, and they won't now agree to merge the lists. It would NEVER happen. Why would Leo agree to this? Would you if you were him? Cost is the name of the game in this day and age, why would any manager ever give up such a massive cost advantage gained by keeping the lists seperate? Even if we struck over it, Delta would simply spin off DCI.

I agree onelist is a good idea. But I am also a realist, and firmly believe that it is impossible. Despite repeated requests, no one has been able to convince me otherwise. I will ask again: Why would Delta ever agree to merge the lists. Assuming we had the leverage, why wouldn't they just spin off DCI if we forced the issue. Even if we were successful, onelist would be worthless without scope. Do you think that we could a: get Delta to merge the lists, and b: get them to agree to eliminate all outsourcing? Furthermore, don't you agree that the above would only be remotely possible with the full support of the Delta pilots, and only through massive concessions on our part. I can assure you that that support would only be possible with a staple, and probably not even then. However, it seems that neither ASA or CMR mec's would accept a staple, preferring instead to go to arbitration, where they might get lucky. That is well and good, but they shouldn't express surprize when the Delta pilots don't fall over themselves to support it.

This argument is old, and I won't respond to the same arguments. If anyone has any new or realistic answers to the above questions, I would love to hear them. If not, we'll just have to agree to disagree, and I will concede the last word.

 

[General Lee]

FDJ,

I guess I also agree with you-----Delta probably would never agree to merging lists. The only hard core agreement we have right now is that ASA pilots will have some sort of preferential hiring agreement when we start hiring again after the furloughs return. This agreement---in whatever form, is better than nothing and will result in the hiring of ASA pilots. But before that, we will get you back into a 757 right seat.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

General,


I'm looking forward to it. I sure do miss it!

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

There you go again General!

You know dam well that DOH was never, ever, never never never, ever mentioned in the PID. YOU know dam well that the PID is NOT where you state any conditions.

Show me ONE, just ONE fact to back up your claim that a DOH was EVER brought up by our MEC, and I will concede the argument. The fact is, you can't!A nd you know it. All you most likely have to offer is a bunch of urban myths about what some pilot said to another on a jump seat going from CVG to where ever. Come on now, give it a rest for Gods sake, plaeeeze.