a MAJOR announcement @ SkyWest

[FlyDeltasJets]

Fins,

I have to give it to you, you're wearing me out. If you keep repeating the same allegations, does that make them true?

The rjdc will lose in court. Perhaps the judge will throw it out, or perhaps they will lose at trial, but they will lose (thankfully for our profession). The supporters of the rjdc SHOULD then be removed from the union (time will tell if that will occur, but I have already started fighting for it). Our contract will withstand your selfish assault, just as it would if someone were to sue to change it regarding our ability to choose our codeshare partners.

Enjoy the last word here. I will enjoy it later.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Oh, and on what grounds are you going to have me removed from the union? Does that mean I don't have to pay dues for all the representation I'm getting? Oh please, what ever you do, don't throw Brier Rabbit in that there briar patch.

Somehow, if Duane Woerth is so pleased to get his picture taken eating cake and ice cream with Continental Scabs, he will not hold too much of a grudge about my support of pilots who are fighting for the right to bargain collectively with their employer.

ALPA actually has a history of offering Plaintiffs high office at National. We have an EVP who brought the Jet America litigation over a DFR claim. It is more likely that Dan Ford will rise in the ranks for fighting to restore the union than be tossed out. After all, continued malfeasance and retribution against RJDC supporters is illegal as well. Cheaper by the dozen just to buy 'em off. Unfortunately for ALPA, Ford can't be bought.

I will copy your post into my "I told you so" file that I'm starting.

 

[601Pilot]

????

The only flaw I see in that logic is that there will not be an
ALPA if the RJDC wins. I'm glad you are in the minority here at
ASA or I would think we were in trouble! Regionals are for
building time to move to the majors, always have been and
always will be and that's what the majority of us here are doing.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting a better contract and
more money for the guys that will follow me and I'll be happy to
fight/picket/strike for it.

Buh-bye!

 

[Russ]

I suppose it is time to finish this dialogue as it serves only to to give the 3 of us a case of the red a$$.

All of our hypotheticals will end soon and the hardball starts thereafter. I don't believe we will get mainline size aircraft but the companies work seems to be centered around stretched RJ's.
SkyWest has a pretty forward leaning top management team. I find it hard to believe they would persue a course of action that would have us lose the contract with D. You might want to review your iron clad contract for leaks. A little background. The UA contract for the West came available in 97 or thereabouts. SkyWest approached D about it and was told absolutely no. No way would they code share with a carrier that was serving UA also. We would have to forfeit the contract with D. Well, as they say the rest is history.........

Finished here.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Russ,

There was nothing in our contract that would have prohibited that. I cannot answer for our mgt, but our contract has no loopholes where that is concerned. If mgt wanted to continue codesharing with skywest after skywest bought airplanes larger that 70 seat (72 seats for prop planes) they would need our permission.

I am not speculating whether or not that would be granted, just as I am not speculating whether you will buy those planes. All I am doing is pointing out contract language with which Delta must abide.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Re: ????

The only flaw I see in that logic is that there will not be an
ALPA if the RJDC wins. I'm glad you are in the minority here at
ASA or I would think we were in trouble! Regionals are for
building time to move to the majors, always have been and
always will be and that's what the majority of us here are doing.

So, you believe that pilots at regionals should recieve different representation by their union, or be under the control of the MEC's at major airlines?

The RJDC is not fighting to distroy ALPA. The RJDC is fighting for the principles our union was founded on, fighting alter ego airlines that undermine all of our collective bargaining efforts, including Delta's. Your post reflects that you genuinely do not understand the issues of representation involved.

ALPA should be leading the charge to stop alter ego airlines which are a blockade run of unions' efforts to hold a company to a contract. ALPA National does understand the problem and says some of the right things, for example when they talk about "brand scope." The problem is that ALPA National is unwilling, or unable, to control the big MEC's - particularly the Delta MEC.

The Delta MEC speaks for the Delta pilots through ALPA and that is good. I have no problem with the Delta MEC promoting the interests of their pilots. The problem is that currently the Delta MEC speaks for Comair, ASA, and Skywest pilots while at the same time using our only bargaining agent, ALPA, to block us from negotiating with our employer. I do have a huge problem with the fact my job with my employer is controlled by another pilot group's MEC without my vote and without my participation.

I believe that everyone, Fly Delta Jets included, supports the principles that employees should be able to bargain collectively with their employer and be represented by a union. It is a core, founding principle of ALPA. Now explain to me, how that destroys ALPA?

Yes, there is a damages demand, a big one that ALPA can not pay. If it is proven that ALPA has not represented their pilots at ASA and Comair fairly the ALPA has a choice, they can fix their structure to allow ASA and Comair pilots the same representational rights as other ALPA pilot groups, or pay the money. The whole point of the damages demand is to force ALPA to act appropriately - because if they behave, they don't have to pay a dime.

ALPA is a political body. It is very difficult for ALPA National to control the politicians at the Delta MEC. They will not treat pilots at smaller airlines fairly unless forced to do so. Like you, I find a damages demand in the millions distasteful, but I realize it is necessary to secure the kind of representation needed to restore our industry and at the same time fix the problems that might cause ALPA to break down into a system of fiefdoms at war with each other.

Fly Delta's Jets and I agree on what is needed to fix the problem and we share the beliefs in the same core issues. We have very different opinions on how the repairs should be made. Restoring our industry requires unity - we all know that. Unity benefits you at ASA and pilots at Delta. But, throughout history employers have fought employees efforts to come together. At Delta we can expect a fight and it is easier for those in a comfortable position to enjoy the fat of the land rather than fight to fix problems that future mainline pilots, like you, are going to experience.

If the Delta MEC had not fought one list, their furloughed pilots would be CRJ700 Captains, you would have a career path, Skywest could operate whatever they wanted to fly under any code other than Delta's and it is unlikely we would have seven different groups of pilots flying Delta's narrow body domestic routes.

So why would that destroy ALPA? Just because the current political will at the Delta MEC favors military pilots over civillian? It is not that big a deal - ALPA could change in a moment and Duane Woerth could claim it was all his idea to return to the basic principles our union was founded on and the need for the RJDC would simply disappear.

~~~^~~~

 

[hawkowl88]

One list is the only solution

I've said before and I'll say it again. Contract, shmontract. Major airline pilot contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on in today's cutthroat, competitive, bankrupt environment. Ask UAL, USAIR, TWA. Christ what about Delta's no furlough clause? When the company's survival is at stake, everything is open to negotiation.

Scope can not survive across companies. A union only has as much bargaining power by admitting all qualified employees to the same list and affording equal protection. If the union sets up an artificial second class set of citizens it sows the seeds of its own demise via whipsawing. ALPA shouldn't be called a union it should be termed a dis-union. This attitude of I got mine and you can't have yours is suicidal. For christ sake staple everyone at the bottom and control the means of production.

Codeshare simply means you sell tickets for other airlines on specific routes DALPA can't control the airplanes of other companies. I would laugh if it wasn't so tragic. What are you going to strike over this scope clause? File CH11 and infuriate your non-pilot employees? I didn't think so. No credible threat, no bargaining power, no scope. Yeah, Yeah DALPA will sue. Whoopdedoo. All Delta has to do is point to UAL, & USAir farming out their flying as fast as they can shovel it out the door and scream "competitive disadvantage!" You won't be able to keep your payscale and your scope and your retirement and your workrules when everyone else is signing their lives away. Only brutal capitalist competition. Survival of the lowest bidder.

I hope as a good pilot you have an alternate, a 2nd alternate and a takeoff alternate and enough fuel to get there.

 

[PCL_128]

Fins, you need to look more closely at your cherished lawsuit. It doesn't ask for the elimination of "predatory" scope or damages assessments. It asks for BOTH. If Mr. Ford et al. win their lawsuit, it will mean the elimination of so-called "predatory" scope and the destruction of ALPA. ALPA would be required to pay hundreds of millions of dollars which they don't have.

You can try to make the RJDC and Mr. Ford seem like saints trying to save ALPA, but that doesn't ring true. Mr. Ford and his compatriots at the RJDC are nothing but greedy, whining, selfish litigants. They don't care about ALPA or what is best for the profession. They only care about getting absurd amounts of money from their own union.

Listen to 601Pilot. Most of your CMR/ASA brethren feel the way he does. You and your RJDC friends just won't listen to them.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins, you need to look more closely at your cherished lawsuit.

It is not my lawsuit, but I support the action.

You can try to make the RJDC and Mr. Ford seem like saints trying to save ALPA, but that doesn't ring true. Mr. Ford and his compatriots at the RJDC are nothing but greedy, whining, selfish litigants. They don't care about ALPA or what is best for the profession. They only care about getting absurd amounts of money from their own union.

You don't know any of the litigants and don't know their motives. Why is it so hard for you to believe that perhaps I am uncomfortable with another MEC negotiating my career? You are a radical, and probably feel I am too. You are this upset about the RJDC just trying to secure representation for our pilots - how would you feel if you were in our shoes? If I had control of your MEC and your employer, like DALPA effects control over ours?

Listen to 601Pilot. Most of your CMR/ASA brethren feel the way he does. You and your RJDC friends just won't listen to them.

Mr. 601 pilot does not have to support the RJDC and I bet he doesn't. He is confused and believes the RJDC can "destroy ALPA." They can't and they don't want to.

As a junior pilot, Mr. 601's job is effected more by the predatory actions of the Delta MEC than mine, but it is his choice. He has come along at a fortunate time and does not know the real harm that ALPA's scope policy can cause (after all, the effect has been felt most by the junior members of the Delta seniority list) {Also, by twarting much of the harm - the RJDC has helped Mr. 601 - he just does not know it} The ASA pilot group elected the officers that brought the PID and re-elected them. No one ran on the "lets let the Delta pilots take whatever they want and stop our attempts to secure job protection" platform. Yet, somehow, they were re-elected with great margins and pilot support.

Mr. 601 should have a voice that should be heard, not excluded. While I do disagree with him, I will fight for the right of his MEC to represent him. If the RJDC succeeds in securing representation for our pilots, then our MEC will have the power to act on Mr. 601's desires.

 

[PCL_128]

You don't know any of the litigants and don't know their motives. Why is it so hard for you to believe that perhaps I am uncomfortable with another MEC negotiating my career? You are a radical, and probably feel I am too. You are this upset about the RJDC just trying to secure representation for our pilots - how would you feel if you were in our shoes? If I had control of your MEC and your employer, like DALPA effects control over ours?

I am in your shoes. I work at Pinnacle (NWAirlink) where our flying is scoped by the NWA mainline contract. The NWA scope is a heck of a lot more restrictive than Delta's. We have to convert the new CRJs we are getting to 44-seat versions so that we can have more RJs. The NWA scope prevents us from having more than about 45 50-seat jets. We are completely prohibited from having ANYTHING over 50 seats. Mesaba had to get special permission to operate the Avro and they are limited to the number they currently have. I don't forsee the possibility of flying a 70 seater anytime in they near future. Certainly not a 90 seater.

Am I worried about my career being limited by mainline NWA scope? Absolutely not!!! ALPA is doing their best to make sure that the high paying mainline jobs will still be there when it's my time to apply. I don't want to be stuck at a regional the rest of my life. The scope at the majors is helping to keep the high paying jobs that I want someday. It is not limiting my career.

Mr. 601 pilot does not have to support the RJDC and I bet he doesn't. He is confused and believes the RJDC can "destroy ALPA." They can't and they don't want to.

Explain to me how a ruling in the RJDC's favor requiring hundreds of millions of dollars to be paid by ALPA would not bankrupt the union. ALPA simply does not have the money to pay in the event they lose this lawsuit. The RJDC can destroy ALPA, and I believe that is their ultimate objective.

 

[Don]

I’m a little embarrassed to admit I read this thread but in any case;

“…Regionals are for building time to move to the majors, always have been and
always will be…”

I’m not arguing one point or another, I just thought I’d mention that I just got the new edition of flying and is an article in it that talks about regional airlines being a final career destination. I haven’t read the whole article yet so I don’t have much else to say about it.

It looks like they have last month's edition online at http://www.flyingmag.com/ so I’m guessing that if you wait a week or two you will find the article there.

 

[Russ]

PCL
I hope your young enough to weather the storm and get picked up in the 4 to 8 years it will take for it to happen. Some of us are not. I am 38 now and the current situation dictates I make the best of where I am at, flying an RJ. Don't take this personel, but I am not going to put your goals ahead of mine. Many will make a career here at the regionals. I am not prepared to have boundries placed on my advancement to further young fellas(presuming that fits you) like yourself. If inthe current situation regionals end up flying 70/90 seaters or larger than so be it. Let that determination come from the market not from some old boy network that handsomely benefits only the few.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL
I hope your young enough to weather the storm and get picked up in the 4 to 8 years it will take for it to happen. Some of us are not. I am 38 now and the current situation dictates I make the best of where I am at, flying an RJ. Don't take this personel, but I am not going to put your goals ahead of mine. Many will make a career here at the regionals. I am not prepared to have boundries placed on my advancement to further young fellas(presuming that fits you) like yourself. If inthe current situation regionals end up flying 70/90 seaters or larger than so be it. Let that determination come from the market not from some old boy network that handsomely benefits only the few.

Yes, I am young enough to have a career at the majors someday down the road. However, I have 2 friends in my crashpad that are in their 40s and will probably have to make Pinnacle their career airline.

If you want to stay at a regional for your entire career (or have to because of age), then I have no problem with that. We should fight for the best pay rates, work rules, and retirement that we can get at the regionals. That doesn't mean that we should try to take mainline flying and get larger and larger aircraft. We can negotiate retirement, pay, and workrules on smaller aircraft that don't violate mainline scope language. We don't have to eliminate scope in order to get decent careers at the regionals.

 

[wil]

If mainline has a case then why not let the RJDC lawyers represent them as well? Same thing isn't it? Surely they good represent 100% of both parties and their interests!

 

[rjcap]

601pilot

I'm glad you are in the minority here at

What minority is that ???

 

[46Driver]

I gotta agree with Russ. I'm in my late 30's and the prospects of ever getting to a major look dimmer with every passing day. Therefore, the best thing to do (for me and those in the same boat) is to make my regional as successful as it can be: both with more planes and with larger planes (70 seat, 90 seat, 717's. etc..). I think Dante said it best: better to rule in hell then serve in heaven....

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I think that people need to consider that fact that if the major's pilots had been stronger on scope years ago, you could have all been flying those rjs for mainline. Instead, ALPA (and other pilot groups) erred, and allowed outsourcing, which has led to far fewer opportunities at the majors.

Now it seems that people want us to repeat that mistake with large airplanes. What foresight! Can you not see the future ramifications? Apparently, not only are we not learning from history, we are not learning from the present!

Rather than "ruling in hell," shouldn't the union concentrate of efforts to create more openings in heaven?

 

[~~~^~~~]

ALPA needs to consider that as a result of their past errors there are now thousands of ALPA members in "hell" who are a part of the same integrated transportation system.

Fly Delta Jets, we have to be part of the solution. You can not simply scope us out of existence without our participation.

Airlines have bought smaller airlines since EL Cord started his version of alter ego. ALPA came up with the merger and fragmentation policy and it worked for pilots flying F27's at Northeast, pilots at Western and ATR pilots at Ransome. The only difference is that now your Delta and your MEC have conspired to create an apartied system that built a wall around heaven.

We remembered the lessons learned by our progenitors - we have been reminding you of all the perils of alter ego.

If is your MEC that forced the paradigm shift. By being arrogant and egocentric enough to build a wall to keep out the undesireables. If is your MEC that changed the Constitution and Bylaws to redefine "operational integration" and it is your MEC that misrepresented the matter at the 2000 BOD meeting.

You say your MEC cant achieve one list. I'm telling you they never wanted to and don't want to now. They want to isolate and destroy. You tell me - who has forgot the lessons our union was founded on.

Build a wall that takes them in - inclusive scope.

~~~^~~~

 

[46Driver]

FDJs,
I think you are absolutely correct - if ALPA years ago had mandated that all that all jet flying be done by the major airline, we wouldn't be in this problem. However, the technology improved (RJ's) faster than ALPA could react (fighting battles with old tactics but new technology makes business, like war, very bloody) - in other words, management had a quicker OODA loop (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act). Once the genie was out of the bottle, there was no going back.
In my case, a staple to the bottom of either of our 2 major partner (DAL and UAL) would be a disaster. The prospect of seniority number 10 or 15 years down the road is in no way compensation for being a regional F.O. for the next decade +. I would much rather be a 70 seat RJ captain making $100+ a year with a great schedule (quality of life over money) than making $130+ a year as a mainline F.O. commuting to sit reserve. Someone much wiser than me said that "where a man stands is usually determined by where he sits..."

 

[General Lee]

This all could have been cleared up a long time ago if ASA/Comair didn't want DOH seniority. That was the big sticking point back then. Dan Ford and Capt Lawson could never see themselves as junior MD88 FO's (even though it would pay more), and that is what is so dangerous for everyone else. They are only thinking about themselves and the other 300 senior cronies around them. They don't care about the rest of you. Same goes for the senior ASA guys. IF they put a "staple" to a vote----most everyone would vote for it (assuming the Iraq thing is over and the economy gets better---and the furloughs returned..) Do you think they would do that when they know that they are not in the majority? No way. Instead, they will try to fight for the senior guys, knowing full well that they never want to be in the FO's seat again.

Bye Bye---General Lee