A Letter to Pres. Bush

[46Driver]

Re: Re: Kathy

What he said. Everyone seams to think it is alright for a company to send jobs [outsource jobs] to overseas locations. Then the resulting loss of jobs is not a problem. If you are unable to continue to work, it's your fault because you aren't trying hard enough or you are un willing to "re educate" yourself and become a more viable person.

However, mention the [sacred cow] pilot position as in a foreign carrier working in the U S and the fur starts to fly.

So, I guess it all depends on whose ox is being gored at the time.

What is the alternative in a global economy? If you say tariffs, then that just protects one group of US workers at the expense of another group of US workers (see the sugar analogy a few postings up) - and that doesn't even begin to factor in trade retaliation. Simply supply ourselves? Not feasible since we are an island nation built upon trade - we must trade to prosper.

 

[Dubya]

Ease up....sheesh.

I think Kathy was making a thoughtful and concerned effort to address some of her clients issues...whether or not she understands all of the in's and out's of capitalism, economics, etc. according to others viewpoints is different. You all bring great points and thoughts into this issue...the idea behind a forum..yet come after Kathy as if you have all the correct answers and correct views. Everyone needs to at least attempt to see things from another's eyes. No need to flame someone who is simply trying to help....somewhat misguided or not.
timebuilder:
"because this isn't abpout corporate greed at all. It is about corporate competition and the responsibility that these corporation have to their American stockholders to be profitable. A great many people find it convenient to confuse greed with profit. Mostly, they are socialists. We, here in the US, are capitalists. There is a world of difference, and it is what has made us a great nation."

Our inability to compete is a direct result of the huge profits needed to support the lifestyles in our society. If you don't think that corporate greed is a part of that...you should dig a little deeper. There is no denying the need for more focus on education and core values..work ethics, personal responsibilty etc., and most can agree that the welfare system is flawed, and creating a dependent welfare class, but to call someone a socialist because they see the results of greed...at the expense of others....is pretty narrowminded. I've seen corporate greed closeup...you can call it profit if you want....but it's the need for these huge profits that drives everything else up. Any REAL econ major will tell you that our entire economy can run on just one penny. Your Pakistani friend and his fellow countrymen want to wear levi's and have the things that we have here...but did you ever notice that those same items cost nothing there, but we are charged for the logos and the image. American's are taken advantage of...greed, excessiveness, selfishness, fake personality in the name of success, all contribute to the core problems here. You are correct about capitalism and the prosperity created by a free market, but the personal values that you claim are necessary to make us truly competitive aren't attainable in a society that rewards excess and success at ANY cost. Instead of trying to fix some of these issues...you simply say, deal with it....I agree with that to an extent...competition is healthy and obviously necessary. If you wanted to go compete with Microsoft...you could do it.....but you really can't. Why? Because of greed. Bill Gates is not satisfied with a share of the market, he wants all of it, and to get it, he puts a system of fear and bullying in place to see to it that he gets what he wants. Sure he has made a bunch of people wealthy right along with him, but his greed prevents others from capitalizing on their ideas. That's not corporate greed? Nike can't pay laborers in this country more because they can't profit? No...they can profit...just not enough to support the lifestyles and salary demands created by a society of excess. You make some good points...but so does she. There is no easy answer...so don't be so quick to pass judgement.
My too sense.

W (The "G" Meister, regulator, with a tilted brim)

 

[Checks]

Kathy,

I agree with most of what you said. I also appreciate the fact that you took the time to write President Bush about it.

The fact is that we have FREE TRADE but not FAIR TRADE. We have FAIR TRADE with only a handful of countries. Countries that share our same beliefs and values on how a company should treat its workers and the environment. With those countries, I feel we should have un-restricted trade.

As for China and most of the third world, until they share our same values then we will never have FAIR trade with them. A tariff on their products is the only way to level the playing field.

Vote for FAIR TRADE not just FREE TRADE.

If you think the economy is bad now wait until this out of control budget deficit causes interest rates to rise thru the roof, can you say stagflation? I thought republicans were about smaller government? They are worse than ANY democrat controlled congress ever was. Can you say
"GoodBye Social Insecurity?"

 

[Timebuilder]

Timebuilder, I'm always sorry to see you jump on the all-or-nothing, no-gray-area bandwagon. Being anti-war is not the same as being anti-American. Unless Kerry was inciting men to desert on the field of battle or passing tactical information to the Viet Cong, his actions don't rise to the level of "anti-American." (Jane Fonda, however, is a different story.)

Well, I'm sorrry to disappoint you, but there is one word used for giving aid and comfort to the enemy:

Treason.

I'd say that's "anti-American."

I disagree that it's not about corporate greed in all cases. When companies such as Polo Ralph Lauren and Nike use the chepaest labor on the face of this earth and charge such high prices for their products ($80 for rugby shirts and $120 for sneakers, respectively), then how can one not claim it's about the profits.

I think the idea of paying these prices is, well, stupid. You won't see me wearing that stuff. As for the prices, someone is stupid enough to pay it, and the companies can charge whatever they want. That's why companies exist: to make money. That isn't "greed", it's called finding what the market will bear. If everyone suddenlly comes to their senses and stops buying $120 sneakers, the companies wiill change their tune, and their product pricing, too.

Hey Bart and Timebuilder. You know I'm not a leftist, but I can't agree to totally free, sovereignty killing trade either. I've got a question. Back in times past, my grandparents/parents had a decent life in these United States, and NAFTA etc did not exist. How were we able to have a decent std of living then?

We existed in a substantially different world. When you and I were young, you'll recall that "made in Japn" meant cheap and decidedly inferior goods. Now, it is the home of the biggest seller of quality cars in the US, Toyota.

Different times, different problems.

I agree about the short-sighted consumers thing. BTW, the best-quality brake rotors are made in Canada. (I found this out from working on my own cars.)

The Canadian stuff is pretty good. They made my Corolla I drove for seven years, and all of the Camaros and Firebirds, too.

I do not believe that I ever blamed anything on President Bush. As I said before, the loss of jobs goes across both political lines. Our Governor in Arizona is a Democrat and she was right up there with the President of Mexico talking about sending jobs out of the country! Now, three months later, she is reversing her position, acting as if no one noticed!

I have to question why, if there is no blame, and the letter would be sent to either a democrat or a republican, then what, pray tell, is the purpose of the letter? If it would be an effective use of time and energy to send it, it would therefore follow that some aspect of the president receiving the letter would cause the president to take some sort of action to correct your complaint. That would have to mean that, in this case, the president would be able to do something that no economist recommends, or even has conceived.

Anytime someone sends a letter like this, there is a "calling to task". I have seen only the good ideas that Enigma has listed as creative solutions, but there is no political will in this country, by ANYONE, to take these steps.

The Federal Reserve is not Federal, and there are no reserves.

At any rate, we must redouble our efforts, and like IBM, get our elephants dancing. We aren't going to see that wall or the elimination of affirmative action anytime soon. With many jobs going overseas, we can only recommend that Jesse Jackson lead the Indians out of bondage.

 

[Singlecoil]

Well, I'm sorrry to disappoint you, but there is one word used for giving aid and comfort to the enemy:

Treason.

I'd say that's "anti-American."

Timebuilder is saying that an officer who earned the Silver and Bronze Stars for killing the enemy and leading his men in combat in Vietnam has committed treason by questioning the purpose and prosecution of that war.

What we are witnessing here is true "revisionist history". A year ago, nobody in their right mind would try to lay the blame of this nation's experience in Vietnam at the feet of those who were saying that our policies in conducting the war were flawed. Most people agreed the problem was how the Executive Branch conducted the war. What is different a year later is that we have the proponents of a similar war of inflated threats (we weren't attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin and there is ZERO evidence of any effort by Iraq to attack Americans) and inflated optimism at its outset lending way to a withdrawal of our forces before our objectives are achieved. Many of those who supported this war are unable to state the obvious, that is was an ill-advised adventure in neo-conservatism. Instead they will blame anyone who ever spoke against the idea of attacking Iraq as being somehow responsible for our ultimate failure to transform the Middle East via a democratic domino theory.
Their first strategy will be to blame John Kerry for Vietnam.

Where is that "ignore posts" button again?

 

[Checks]

i usually like timebuilders posts but it is pretty obvious to all that he is just a "Ditto Head"

Whatever the republicans do he he will twist the facts to support the republican agenda.

I am going to bed now.

 

[JonJohn82]

I come from a small town in Oklahoma. The major employer in the town has been a company called Kwikset which makes locks. It has been announced in the recent past that Kwikset will be moving the operations of this plant to Mexico. The company told the town that it would stay if it could give twenty two million dollars. There is no way the town could come up with twenty two million dollars. Now, Kwikset is closing down operations. People are being laid off a few at a time.

The effects of this employer, which employs the majority of workers in and around town, leaving are already beginning to look devastating. Many of the small businesses in town are closing down. The small Wal-mart store which has been operating in this small town of 5,000 people will soon have to close, ending even more jobs. Work isn't an easy thing to find around especially when there are so many already unemployed. When you have a family to feed and no job, it becomes difficult for you to "retrain" yourself and find work.

It seems to me that the only way to keep jobs in the United States, is to encourage people to buy from the companies who only operate in the United States or at least they operate in the U.S. moreso than their competitors. Accomplishing this seems unlikely.

So maybe what is happening is only the natural thing. Jobs in the U.S. will go elsewhere. Many people will be unemployed and unable to buy the things that these businesses are moving their factories and such overseas to build. People will become desperate for jobs and work for lower wages. They will stop living in excess etc etc until the whole world is working for nearly the same wage.

Perhaps it is only the world economy finding equilibrium.

Maybe I'm offbase. I'm not sure.

Any thoughts?

 

[rettofly]

Timebuilder is saying that an officer who earned the Silver and Bronze Stars for killing the enemy and leading his men in combat in Vietnam has committed treason by questioning the purpose and prosecution of that war.

Questioning the purpose and prosecution of ANY war is not dishonorable. What Kerry did was to lie about "atrocities" that he should have tried to stop and reported to his superiors. He also lent his name to an organization whose propaganda was used to demoralize our POWs. In 1985, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap told European reporters that the North Vietnamese would have given up but for the propaganda of Hanoi Jane and Kerry.


.....we weren't attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin and there is ZERO evidence of any effort by Iraq to attack Americans.....

There is evidence that the Gulf of Tonkin attack that justified Johnson's buildup was a red herring.
Were we attacked in 1917 to propel us int WW I?
Were we attacked in the 1940s to propel us into WW II in Europe?
Were we attacked by Korea to propel us into that conflict?

Were we attacked by Bosnia?

The common denominator in all of the military interventions listed above is the incumbency of a Democrat administration. It seems a bit hypocritical to pound on the current administration for "rushing to war", a process which consumed 14 months and agreement by all except three nations which, by the way, had a vested interest in keeping the Iraqi regime in power.
QUOTE]

 

[bart]

Timebuilder is saying that an officer who earned the Silver and Bronze Stars for killing the enemy and leading his men in combat in Vietnam has committed treason by questioning the purpose and prosecution of that war.

His questioning of the war was perfectly acceptable. His bald face lying about his experiences there and about the actions of others constituted "aid and comfort to the enemy".

He out and out lied...

He admitted he lied...

He totally sold out his comrades in arms. His actions in concert with Jane Fonda led to the death of several Special Forces personnel that had been in captivity and had managed to conceal that they were Special Forces personnel, until a list of all those personnel that had served in country was given to Jane by V.V.A.W.. Nick Rowe was being taken North to be executed when he escaped because of that list.

So the blood of American soldiers is on his hands in my mind, and the minds of many others. Ultimately, Nick Rowe was killed in the Phillipines by a group that collected a reward from the Govt of Vietnam, years after the war. Jane Fonda and Kerry's beloved V.V.A.W. are in my opinion, directly responsible for his death.

So, to me, John Kerry is a traitor. Period.

 

[CLCAP]

Bart,

This is great!! You actually question!! (unfortunately still onesided but a step forward)

How do you know he lied? Were you there to see it - right when he said it happened?

 

[Timebuilder]

Timebuilder is saying that an officer who earned the Silver and Bronze Stars for killing the enemy and leading his men in combat in Vietnam has committed treason by questioning the purpose and prosecution of that war.

No, you would LIKE to think that is what I am saying, but it isn't.

No, instead, I'll direct you to the fact that I think Kerry's service was, on the whole, honorable. The only flaw that stands out to me was the statements he made after that service, which were mentioned in the letter to Kerry by the former Green Beret. If Kerry did see the acts that he described, then he was duty bound and honor bound to report those acts. Kerry has never alluded to making such a report, and no one has offered such a record. It is his acts after the service he gave that makes me sick.

Now, the difference between "questioning the purpose and prosecution of that war", and treason.

Most of us questioned the purpose and prosecution of the war. It seemed like people were dying to accomplish a purpose that was not clearly visible, as we moved squads about in the jungle and would have regular actions where we might take the same hill three times in a week. We knew where the "sam sites" were, and we knew how the Viet Cong were being supplied. We were unwilling to take the actions necessary to get the job done. So what does one do if one questions this? You write letters and you protest on the steps of congress, or hold a rally on The Mall near the Washington Monument. You talk about how you want your brave brothers in arms to come home after serving with distinction and honor. You come home and brand every brother you served with as rapist, delinquent, murderer of babies, maimer, and dishonorable hooligan.

You don't associate yourself with Jane Fonda, who protested against our actions on foreign soil, like our disgraced former president, and you don't found a group like V. V. ATW who advocates desertion of duty. You don't bring dishonor to yourself and your unit by throwing medals. There is so much more, and I have better things to do instead of search the web for it. The bottom line is this: if you bring aid and comfort to the enemy, you are commiting treason.

Many of those who supported this war are unable to state the obvious, that is was an ill-advised adventure in neo-conservatism. Instead they will blame anyone who ever spoke against the idea of attacking Iraq as being somehow responsible for our ultimate failure to transform the Middle East via a democratic domino theory.

John Kerry built his political career on his war protest days. I'll refer you again to the words of a soldier who served honorably in Viet Nam, but did not return home to tell lies about his fellow soldier's service, the other "letter" post in this forum. This is a separate issue from Iraq, where we did precisely the right thing, based on all of the intelligence that we had. Now, Kerry finds it convenient, as a candidate, to do a 180 from the position he held when Clinton was lobbing cruise missles into Iraq. He is a blatant opportunist. Fortunately, the power of internet information won't let him slip by on that.

Will will not "transform the middle east." We have merely created an environment where it is possible for people to do so, those people who long for their own freedom.

Where is that "ignore posts" button again?

Just put your fingers in your ears and go "LA LA LA LA LA". It works for Barney Frank.

 

[Timebuilder]

I almost forgot this:

i usually like timebuilders posts but it is pretty obvious to all that he is just a "Ditto Head"

Do you know what a "ditto head" is? The uninformed think it means "ditto, I agree with everything you say", as if this is a recongnition of a lack of individual thinking. Actually, it is an affirmation that what is being said is a reflection of the listener's pre-existing individual thinking.

That's completely wrong, but it never stops a democrat to be wrong, it merely means he has to lie more creatively. Because this is his natural reaction, when someone finds that intel is wrong about WMD's, for example, the democrat's first instinct is to think that a lie has been toild, just like he himself would have done. That's why the democrat candidates keep repeating the "Bush lied" phrase, hoping it will stick.

The truth about this "ditto" phenomena is that when Rush Limbaugh was first on the radio, people would call and spend the first few minutes talking about how wonderful it was to hear a conservative voice on the radio, and what a great job he was doing articulating positions that were never aired on ACB, NBC, CBS, or CNN. This took up a lot of time, until one day a woman called who had heard the previous caller go through this litany of thanks and simply said "ditto" to what he had said. It caught on, and now callers simply use that phrase as a shorthand for saying "thanks for being there, keep up the good work."

I have many issues with the republican party, so don't count on me to do ANY "twisting" on their behalf, Checks.

 

[Snakum]

What would you have the President do to create jobs?

Repeal NAFTA (thanks a lot President Clinton ), re-intstate tariffs, eliminate GATT and the fast track trade agreements. In short ... protectionism. There is no other way that I can see.

The middle class in America is doomed because big business has been pulling the strings of BOTH parties for the last 20 years, or more.

Think none of this affects you as an airline pilot (the corp pilots already KNOW how they have been affected)? You will ... when former air force pilots of Eastern European countries are flying the domestic routes you are flying now, for a fraction of what you're being paid. It's not a matter of 'if' ... it's a question of 'when', and you can write that one in your family bible. The almighty dollar is king and big business is pulling the strings.

Welcome to hell ....

Minh

 

[46Driver]

Tariffs cut both ways. When you have a tariff against raw materials (say sugar or timber for example), you save jobs in the sugar and timber industries but then you cost domestic jobs that rely upon those natural resources (for example candy factories or furniture factories). By the same token, you impose tariffs on something such as steel, other countries retaliate and impose tariffs on our agricultural products: you save a steelworker's job and put a family farm out of business.

There is no easy answer but I do think we should have a level playing field for our products.

 

[bart]

I keep HEARING about jobs going overseas, and I hear anecdotal evidence. Has anyone seen numbers?

I waded through plenty of articles that gave unemployment and job figures, but no source that gave numbers on jobs that have moved overseas.

The articles generally quoted an unemployment figure and then said the current administration is doing nothing to stop jobs from going overseas.

I would like to take this opportunity to also accuse the current administration of doing nothing to stem the increase in number of rainy days in the southeast this winter.

 

[Snakum]

Has anyone seen numbers?

Yes, for the IT industry I have. I'll see if I can dig up the articles - including one from a Canadian paper - and post numbers.

I know you're just not convinced that the middle class is in trouble, however, next time you're gonna be in GSO or INT, PM me and I'll take you lunch. Along the way I'll show you about 100 factories that are boarded up, and we'll also stop at Home Depot so you can talk to the Engineers and Managers who used to work in them.

Minh

 

[sqwkvfr]

You know, something that I don't understand is the way the democrats and their willing accomplices in the media keep talking about the loss of manufacturing jobs, as if they're somehow the "Mecca" of jobs.

A long time ago in a land far, far, away, I had a manufacturing job.... hated it....don't want another one....and today, don't know anyone that has one.

I've never heard this.."Mom, when I grow up, I want a manufacturing job."

 

[Typhoon1244]

His actions in concert with Jane Fonda led to the death of several Special Forces personnel that had been in captivity and had managed to conceal that they were Special Forces personnel, until a list of all those personnel that had served in country was given to Jane by V.V.A.W.

If this were true, Kerry would be in Leavenworth.

He's not in Leavenworth.

Did this story have the same source as the photo of Kerry and Hanoi Jane sharing a podium at an anti-war rally? You know, the photo that turned out to be phony?

Even former POW's have proven that these storys about H.J. causing the deaths of Special Forces personnel are false. I don't like Jane...in fact, I don't think she should have been allowed to return to the U.S. after her trip to Vietnam. But let's stop running off the end of the Earth with these stories. I mean, think about it: what would anti-war protesters have to gain from having American POW's murdered?

In protesting the war, Kerry was exercising the First Amendment privileges that he himself helped defend. That gives him--and those like him--far more credibility than all other protesters, in my opinion. Again, unless he was passing tactical information to the V.C. (which he wasn't) or inciting men to turn and run on the field of battle (which he didn't), than nothing he did rises to the level of "treason."

 

[BORN2FLY]

The Greatest Generation

What happened to the days of WWII? The days when our entire country stood "together", "united?" The days when the idea of Americans acting as "human shields" against their own country was unfathomable? The days when the thought of a student gunning classmates down at school was unthinkable? The days when there was a strong since of moral character and values in this country? The days when common courtesy outweighed personal gain? I listen to the stories from my grandfather who fought on battlefields in Europe and the South Pacific, and I'm honestly embarrassed for our society. The ONLY reason that any of us live life as we know it is because of what that generation did for this country. How did we get so far away from the things that really matter? I feel like the foundation of our current society is a disgrace to every drop of blood and sweat that was left by the greatest generation ever to carry America.

JMHO...something to think about.

 

[Resume Writer]

Articles on Job Numbers

In response to your questions Bart, here are just two articles that deal with this topic. Both of them give numbers. The interesting thing is it's not just "manufacturing jobs" that are going by the way side...read on...

Increasing export of white-collar jobs is cause for concern
By Michelle Kessler and Stephanie Armour
USA Today

White-collar employees have long believed their jobs were safe from the economic forces that have shifted millions of factory jobs to foreign countries in the past 30 years.
Not anymore.
It's not just clothing and electronics being made by workers in India and China and similar places. Now, it's office and professional jobs that are being shipped out -- raising the specter that skilled white-collar workers could face the same devastating job losses that decimated the manufacturing industry.
Already call-center jobs have been affected, including jobs in Utah. Convergys Corp. a week ago confirmed plans to move at least 100 technical support jobs at its Taylorsville call center to an overseas center.
Almost any professional job that can be done long-distance is suddenly up for grabs. Jobs done by financial analysts, architectural drafters, telemarketers, accountants, claims adjusters, home loan processors and others at higher levels of the labor food chain are being farmed out to workers in other countries.
"We're not just talking about call-center jobs, but all kinds of jobs," says Deloitte Consulting analyst Christopher Gentle. "It doesn't leave any part of the corporation untouched."


These include high-paying, highly sought-after jobs that often require advanced degrees and years of study to attain. But instead of paying six-figure salaries to trained workers in America, more companies are shelling out $10,000 to $20,000 to get cheaper employees an ocean away.
Major U.S. companies, including such giants as IBM, Microsoft and Procter & Gamble, are leading the pack. Tens of thousands of jobs already have been shipped out, and analysts project that millions more will go -- just as the fragile economy attempts a rebound.
Employers say outsourcing jobs to foreign countries makes them more competitive because they can reap enormous savings in labor costs. They argue that most of the jobs now going overseas are positions many Americans snub, such as telemarketing. Farming out that work leaves better, higher-paying jobs for American employees to do.
The trend represents a potential seismic shift: In the next 15 years, American employers will move about 3.3 million white-collar jobs and $136 billion in wages overseas, according to Forrester Research. That's up from $4 billion in wages in 2000.
Financial services companies alone plan to move more than 500,000 jobs offshore in the next five years, says consulting firm A.T. Kearney. Deloitte Consulting expects 2 million jobs worldwide to eventually move to countries such as India.
To labor unions, the farming out of white-collars jobs is more than just another way for businesses to cut costs. They say the trend has the potential to plunder American jobs, prolong the weak labor conditions that have characterized this jobless economic recovery and pose a long-term danger to the employment security long enjoyed by white-collar workers. It's the first threat of its kind, and critics now are trying to mount an offensive.
"We see it as a threat to America's middle-class work force, in terms of wages and benefits," says Marcus Courtney, president of Washington Alliance of Technology Workers in Seattle. "The service sector is not immune to the forces of globalization. We're talking about highly skilled, best-paying jobs. It's raising the concern of workers."
The Communications Workers of America this spring began pressing Congress to authorize an investigation into the growing number of jobs being shifted overseas. High-tech workers have handed out leaflets and held demonstrations protesting the trend in states such as Texas, Washington, Massachusetts and New York. Critics are pushing for legislation that would halt projects from being sent overseas if they're funded by tax dollars. Others want tax incentives to help keep business on U.S. soil.
The worry: Increasing profit pressures and the ease of information exchange provided by the Internet will turn the wave of companies shipping out work into a tsunami -- potentially having an impact on every sector of the white-collar labor force.

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