A Letter to Pres. Bush

[Timebuilder]

For what it's worth, those who support the outsourcing of jobs "because it is good for the economy" are the very ones who have half-way decent jobs (still) and are comfortable knowing they will never feel the pain (maybe). Indeed, that used to be a certain CEO's mantra.

Ahem.

I don't think that's true.

If you take a peek at the really successful companies, they all share a common trait and culture. Employees are valued as a primary asset and recognized for their contributions not just as a necessary evil. Management are open and able to think outside of the box and when times are bad, show by example. The whole working environment is conducive to productivilty and pride in your work. This then becomes a win-win situation.

We agree on that part.

It is the administration's policies that shape the economy to a large extent. Also, isn't the President supposed to "run the country"? If this is all true, then a certain (but not all) amount of blame has to go that way. Otherwise, what's the point of having the office in the first place. You can't run a country and then turnaround and say, oh well, it's not my fault that jobs are being outsourced far faster than they are being created. That is a cop-out for any politician.

[buzzer sound]

Oh, I'm sorry, that's not correct. (TV gameshow host)

No, the president can help shape the economy, insofar as he can exert leadership on tax policy. That said, we are left with the ability to put up trade barriers as a reaction to outsourcing. The best economists (ones who presumably know more about socialism than is in a textbook) tell us that this is beyond a doubt the wrong thing to do. Politicians are not the be-all and end-all for economic activity. They DO have the power to ruin an economy by putting up trade barriers, though. Good thing we haven't done that.

So, to suggest that I am a lazy, good-for-nothing sponger, is, to my mind, quite hilarious.

Who has sugggested that?

It has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with motivation, attitude, skill level, experience, creed or culture for the vast majority of displaced American workers. I guarantee, they would ALL rather be working in decent jobs with decent companies.

I think you got a little off the track, there. Let me help.

In America, unlike yourself, we have an entire generation or two of people who have been raised on welfare and drugs, and the idea that Jesse Jackson tells them it's the fault of white slave owners from 200 years ago. Studying in school is considered "acting white" in many places, and the average 16 year old who would have walked a paper route at six AM just twenty years ago is now trying to figure out how to start his own porn website featuring his sister. This isn't a sympotom of the "displaced worker", it is one reason in an entire list of reasons why our jobs are going to countries that will work harder for less money. Add in trial lawyers, environmental and social policies, and we have created what feminist lawyers like to call a "hostile working environment."

People who are more motivated, like yourself, would certainly like to be working for a decent company. I would, too. Now that there is a lack of those companies, there is an opportunity for an entire crop of NEW companies that can compete with foreign operations to come into being. If we are smart enough to keep the tax cuts in place for those who traditionally have payed the MOST in taxes, there will be money available for such investments.

She is helping people get back on their feet and that should be applauded, not criticized. Unlike some politicians, she is at least doing something - not just talking about it. That has value that some cannot comprehend, apparently.

Please, point out to me where this has happened in this thread. Speaking for myself, I critiqued the idea that president Bush could somehow benefit from her letter, and take some kind of action to improve the situation she described. I don't think that is even a possibility. If I missed something that was posted other than that, something where she was criticized for helping people, then please, show me.

Some of you should talk to other nationalities about American culture and values and one of the things you will find is this inate concept of greed. The instant gratification no matter how you get it and at whose expense. Yes, money and profits are essential requirements of any capitalistic society but at what price? Small wonder we have become more and more isolated in the international arena. Instead of working together and trying to make this country a better place, we are becoming more divided. And as Kathy says, once ALL the jobs have been outsourced (everything points to an increase, not decrease), what then? You, too, will be out of a job.

Since economies are by their nature self-correcting, I don't see this as bleakly (or as dramatically )as you do. We became the greatest nation on earth by our drive to succeed. That hasn't changed in most of us, so there is solid reason for optimism.

According to the pundits, even GWB's own job is no longer a slam dunk. Who knows for sure what will happen in November? Maybe instead of having all these primaries and the general election, the ideal solution would be to outsource the President's job to a Pakistani (no offence to any race intended). Why not? After all, it would be much cheaper and less hassle.....

As always, I ask those who have better ideas to speak up and share them.

Usually, there is a deafening silence.

I'll keep the current president. At least he acts like an American, and shows that our future as a country depends on how well we respond to terroism. If he stops jobs from going overseas by law, we will be "isolated" in ways we cannot even imagine.

And none of the countries we saved from Hitler will come to our aid. We are far better off staying the course. As difficult as that might be.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Re: Re: The Greatest Generation

Sorry for drifting from the initial topic, but since you brought it up...

It's also a shame that you would actually place blame on the very individuals who died to give you the right to criticize, for the misguided views of a bunch of "hippies."

So you're suggesting one or more of the following:

(1) The "Boomers" are not the children of the Greatest Generation.

(2) The "Boomers" do not have a high divorce rate and were not hippies (for example).

(3) Our parents have no effect on who we become.

I have great respect for the W.W. II generation. We'll never again see Americans with greater bravery and a stronger sense of duty. But I'm also grown-up enough to recognize that there were not perfect. They were human, just like we are.

They weren't perfect parents, and neither are their children. And neither am I. (But I'm doing my best. )

 

[Freddie Spencer]

and the idea that Jesse Jackson tells them it's the fault of white slave owners from 200 years ago. Studying in school is considered "acting white" in many places, and the average 16 year old who would have walked a paper route at six AM just twenty years ago is now trying to figure out how to start his own porn website featuring his sister.

...and this has to do with bush not beeing able to stop the exporting of American jobs???

 

[Timebuilder]

No. This has to do with countries like India having a pool of highly educated, hard working people who do not blame someone for their continuing malaise. This makes the exporting of jobs even more attractive to companies.

 

[bart]

...and this has to do with bush not beeing able to stop the exporting of American jobs???

What jobs?

Where are the facts? The numbers? The list of companies? The kinds of jobs?

The hysterical bedwetters take a news report with no numbers in it and turn it into an epidemic.

Just like how all the straight people who didn't use intravenous drugs were going to get AIDS.

Same thing.

 

[Resume Writer]

Bart - Did you read the articles?

Did you read the articles I posted? Here are direct quotes from them. In addition, go to www.cnn.com/lou This details the companies that are sending jobs overseas.

The trend represents a potential seismic shift: In the next 15 years, American employers will move about 3.3 million white-collar jobs and $136 billion in wages overseas, according to Forrester Research. That's up from $4 billion in wages in 2000.
Financial services companies alone plan to move more than 500,000 jobs offshore in the next five years, says consulting firm A.T. Kearney. Deloitte Consulting expects 2 million jobs worldwide to eventually move to countries such as India.

Deloitte Consulting has about 1,000 employees in Hyderabad and Mumbai, many handling research work. A.T. Kearney uses workers in New Delhi to for research and office support.
IBM has expanded offices in Bangalore, India, to handle engineering work, and is reportedly considering a big off shoring push. Hewlett-Packard has 5,000 employees in India, doing research, developing software and staffing call centers.

Oracle has two big development centers in India, and 4,000 employees will be stationed there by the end of the year.

Oracle plans to shift 175 jobs from Rocklin to India. EarthLink is closing a 450-person call center in Roseville, with some of those jobs reportedly heading overseas.
IBM expects to send 3,000 jobs from the United States to other countries this year.

 

[wil]

When all the Japanese companies are making cars here, BMW, and Mercedes as well, how are we losing jobs? Hyundai will be setting up a factory in San Antoinio to the tune of 7000+ jobs.

W. 2004

 

[bart]

Ok, so far we have projections from consulting companies that say 3.3 mm in 15 yrs, 500 K in 5 years, or ultimately 2 mm.

The tally of jobs moved so far or that have definite plans are:

13,625. Lets say it is 10 times that number 136,250.

According to US Dept of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics,
147,368,421 people were employed in the US at the end of 2003.

So far 0.000925 or 0.09% (roughly one tenth of one percent) of available jobs (using the generous 10X figure) have moved overseas. We expect (if we are highly paid consultants and therefore used to seeing 1,400% increases) to see 2mm more go in the next five years. Lets say that we see average job growth over those five years.

By 2009, 1.2% of jobs will have moved overseas. Thank god we have consultants to warn of us highly accelerating trends. So if you are a telemarketer or a programmer, go to school and learn a new skill or be prepared to work as cheaply as Haji.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

I don't have numbers, but just looking at the back of a package and it is all too common to see "Made In China". Several posts ago a person posted Kwikset (sp?) door knob company is closing shop and moving out of the country. If I remember correctly companies like Mattel, Kodak, and Fisher Price used to make their stuff here but not any longer. Yes, BMW, Toyota, Honda, etc. have thankfully moved assembly plants here. But GE, et.al. have moved theirs to Mexico. Speculate a lot of parts that go inside the cars are made outside the USA.
Speculating again, there has probably been in surge in guberment employment over the last 15 years and that helps keep the unemployment figures down. Also probably a surge in low paying retail jobs peddling Chinese made merchandise.
Someone stated earlier that most of the factory jobs everyone hated anyway. True, but it enabled the common man to make a decent living. Think those days are getting numbered.
To the person involved in flying pax they may not think it is that big of a deal. But to the furloughed person, bet they wished some laid off business executive at Fisher Price was paying full fare to some boring toy convention in Chicago.
I readily admit I don't have the answer(s) but the potential is there for both commerce and guberment to drain the well dry. No one will be able to afford the $90 Nikes or $40K Ford Expedition. The guberment will suffer "revenue" (tax extraction) decreases due to lower paying wages. OSHA and EPA won't have any businesses to threaten, they'll have to start enforcing their codes in the homeplace! Realize I'm being a bit over dramatic.

 

[BORN2FLY]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Greatest Generation

Sorry for drifting from the initial topic, but since you brought it up...So you're suggesting one or more of the following:

(1) The "Boomers" are not the children of the Greatest Generation.

I never said they weren't.

(2) The "Boomers" do not have a high divorce rate and were not hippies (for example).

I never said they didn't.

(

3) Our parents have no effect on who we become.

I'm a firm believer in personal accountability. I grew up in a pretty rough childhood. One that consisted of a father who was gone when I was a year old and a mother who drank too much and made me feel like an unwelcome guest in her home. However, did I use that as an excuse to be a screw-up? No. I used it to make me a better man. So, in my opinion, parents have an effect on the lives of children who are too weak to make their own paths.

For the record, I'm not "suggesting" anything...I'm stating fact.

 

[JonJohn82]

Several posts ago a person posted Kwikset (sp?) door knob company is closing shop and moving out of the country.

That's correct. The plant is packing up and moving its operations to Mexico.

I also saw on the news where the government is proposing to count jobs such as making burgers and such at McDonalds, Burger King, etc.. as "manufacturing jobs." Therefore, the number of manufacturing jobs will soar at the stroke of a pen. That sounds pretty curious seeing as an election is coming up. Maybe I or someone else can find the article online.

 

[Timebuilder]

I don't have numbers, but just looking at the back of a package and it is all too common to see "Made In China".

You'll see more of that, too. This trend will bring representative government to China, doing what warfare with the Chinese could never have accomplished. Their workers will enjoy a rising standard of living, and eventually, sooner than we expect, their labor will not be purchased as cheaply as it is now. As their standard of living rises, the Chinese will become consumers of American goods, a vast fresh market for us to sell our best and brightest ideas. It will be because we have continued to trade with them, instead of closing ourselves off.

We are fortunate, because we can more easily adjust to a changing labor market than many countries. We lack the heavy socialist bureaucracy that would impede others in making changes. Most pilots are intelligent people, on the whole, and can be innovative and clever when the need arises. I think this is what will happen with the loss of certain jobs to overseas labor; just as the IT industry will change and adapt, so will others. It won't mean that we will no longer make things, we will simply see a shift in what is made, and by whom.

Of course, if enough people find an erzatz "Cindy Newman" offensive, then those companies that have outsourced to her will see a decline in US business. If enough people find themselves chagrined to be speaking to a Dell Computer customer service rep in South America, then fewer Dell computers may be sold in the US.

Remember, WE are a part of the market. The choices we make affect what choices are made by companies.

The choice is yours.

 

[Snakum]

Bart, are you sure you live in the same country as the rest of us? I thought I was ill-informed because I rarely watch TV ... but you're living in a cave somewhere my man. Unbelievable ... I can throw a rock from my office and hit one of at least 50 office buildings in my park that are now empty, where hundreds used to work. And my business park looks just like a thousand others here in my little corner of the state. And driving home I'll pass 20 - 30 closed up factories ... this just on MY route. And the news, the papers, and the radio have new employment 'hard luck' stories and local plant closings every day.

But you maintain there's no problem. You ain't too bright is you? Does your conservatism run so deep as to make you disbelieve what every news organization in the frigging country is wagging about, and has been for a few years now, and what those who've witnessed it first-hand tell you?

You're a strange bird, my man.

The Dems and Repubs, both in bed with big business, are equally to blame, too. Clinton and NAFTA ... whatta crock. He told us that new jobs in technology would replaced the lost manufacturing jobs. Well ... all the IT jobs are going to India, China, and Philippines.

Lovely ... just phuk'n lovely ...



Minh

 

[bart]

but you're living in a cave somewhere my man. Unbelievable ... I can throw a rock from my office and hit one of at least 50 office buildings in my park that are now empty, where hundreds used to work.

So did their jobs go overseas?

Sure, the dot com bubble drew alot of people into IT for a career. And alot of those people are out of jobs. That is mostly due to endless amounts of capital being exhausted by comapnies that never turned a profit. Those jobs have evaporated, they are gone. They did not go to China or India.

I am well aware, as I sign a new lease on my office, that there are alot of vacant office buildings. There is precious little that a President of the US can do to change that, short of lowering taxes and setting trade policies that favor countries that enforce labor laws.

So I believe I have a fairly thorough understanding of the situation. I actually saw the implosion coming and minimized its effect on me. I left flying full time knowing that wages and career progression there were going to stagnate for another 2 to 3 years.

There were many knowledgeable people warning of "irrational exuberance" and "unreasonable enthusiasm" in the late 90s, and many chose to ignore them and believe those selling the magic beans. That is a shame, but it was also a choice.

In the end, to jobs going overseas, that just isn't a phenomenon that shows up in the numbers that I see reported. The BLS doesn't show it, and a scan of Lexis/Nexis turns up less than 100K jobs "going overseas". It makes a great story the way the Internet made millionaires - with precious little substance behind it.

So unless the trends are going to accelerate by the 1,400% that consultants expect, there are other fundamental causes of unemployment running at what 10 years ago were "normal" levels.

 

[Timebuilder]

And driving home I'll pass 20 - 30 closed up factories ... this just on MY route. And the news, the papers, and the radio have new employment 'hard luck' stories and local plant closings every day.

When I was in Philadlephia in the 1970's, it was a combination of Dresden (only a handful of years after the race riots drove any sensible manufacturing business out of town) and dry gulch. Those companies had all gone to central Pennsylvania or to the South, and no doubt stopped at GSO along the way down US 81 on the road to Tennessee and Georgia. With the contraction of the economy after the dot com bust, many lost their ability to survive. Many, if not most of the empty offices and factory buildings represent businessses that no longer exist at all, rather than companies that just went somewhere else. Some were taken over by a larger company, and some have moved jobs to another country.

So, not all of what you see is a job in India or China. Within a year or two, some of those offices and buildings will be occupied. But, this will only happen if we keep the tax cuts that free up the capital that opens factories and offices, which employ people.

 

[Snakum]

So, not all of what you see is a job in India or China.

Speaking about the offices, of course not. However, in almost every case of a closed factory locally, the jobs have merely moved further south. In Raleigh, NC in the early 90s, every third person you met was from the northeast or upper mid-west, and had followed the jobs to the southeast as companies sought lower taxes, wages, etc. Then they kept on moving south to Mexico. Now the jobs are beginning to move from Mexico to Asia, according to a piece I heard recently. They interviewed many formerly factory-employed Mexicans in one of the larger cities and he was saying the same things the newly unemployed factory workers in High Point were saying two or three years ago. It was kind of funny actually. Not funny as in Ha Ha ... but definitely strange.

I wonder where the jobs will go after Asia? Eastern Europe? The movie industry already LOVES eastern Europe for lower costs. Perhaps manufacturing is next?

Minh

 

[Timebuilder]

I wonder where the jobs will go after Asia? Eastern Europe? The movie industry already LOVES eastern Europe for lower costs. Perhaps manufacturing is next?

There are problems with running a company in Mexico. The entire country is the home of the bribe, and there isn't an official to be found without dollars in his pocket. In Asia, this isn't the case. In India, it is the case. In India, they are not secretive about their bribes as they are in Mexico, they are almost indignant about your responsibility to pay the bribe. In China, this idea is gaining ground, but it is not usually spoken of openly. It is a "gift" exchanged between business people.

Only some industries lend themselves to this overseas trend, and there will be a time soon when this attraction will wane, as costs begin to rise. As you pointed out, there are only so many places where jobs can go.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Greatest Generation

Originally posted by BORN2FLY
I'm a firm believer in personal accountability. I grew up in a pretty rough childhood. One that consisted of a father who was gone when I was a year old and a mother who drank too much and made me feel like an unwelcome guest in her home.

Ah. This explains your philsophy about parenthood:

...in my opinion, parents have an effect on the lives of children who are too weak to make their own paths.

Are you actually suggesting that I should not try to provide my boys with any emotional or moral guidance because it will make them weak? Jesus!

For the record, I'm not "suggesting" anything...I'm stating fact.

Well, here's another fact for you: people who had a crappy childhood usually ruin their own childrens' early years. It's a pattern recognized by psychologists and family counselors. So...good luck.

I had a wonderful childhood. My parents have been happily married (to each other) my entire life, and they taught me to (1) treat others the way I want to be treated, and (2) do the right thing even if nobody's looking. I wish all parents would do the same. I'm certainly trying to!

 

[ThomasR]

Letter to Bush

I doubt Pres. Bush will find time to read from the ranks, but someone in the press corp will [along with many thousands of other letters from those witnessing globalization up close]. I am convinced that if not invested in the market or in a small business, the only jobs available will be low paying, menial labor, temporary. And, competition for these jobs will be from foreign immigration.

Do you place candidates from the U.S. in the Mexican market? I understand the cost of living in some parts of Mexico is 11 to 1 . If that is true someone with meager savings might still be able to reach the American dream in Mexico. I speak a little Spanish. If I hear good things about Mexico I might move there. What do you think?

 

[rettofly]

Re: Bart - Did you read the articles?

The trend represents a potential seismic shift: In the next 15 years, American employers will move about 3.3 million white-collar jobs and $136 billion in wages overseas, according to Forrester Research. That's up from $4 billion in wages in 2000.
Financial services companies alone plan to move more than 500,000 jobs offshore in the next five years, says consulting firm A.T. Kearney. Deloitte Consulting expects 2 million jobs worldwide to eventually move to countries such as India.

Can you say "GLOBALIZATION"? I'm amazed at the gall of the liberal politicians who promote the Global Village while piously bemoaning the export of jobs. It seems to me that this is a two-way street, since many jobs have been imported into the U. S.
I guess it all depends on whose ox is being gored at the moment.