A Combined United/Continental Contract

[skywdriver]

Just curious what the take on this is, very complicated I would imagine. What happens to CAL's scope? Certainly a good fighting point to keep it, but then what would happen to all the 70 seat United Express flying? What about a combined list? I wouldn't think the top of the list at United would be interested in date of hire, just have a look at the forecast retirements for each carrier. At the same time, date of hire would hook up all the guys that were furloughed and back on property since 2001 given the hiring that has taken place at Continental over the past two years. Also, I would bet that some guys from the Continental side would be scared into early (based on 65 at least) retirement combining lists with a company that lost its retirement completely. Any thoughts?

 

[Furloughed80]

I don't see how DOH could be considered fair. It is not part of ALPA's integration policy and would provide many UAL pilots with a massive windfall.

 

[bpapaDC8]

This is starting to sound like UAL-US Airways from 8 years ago....history does repeat doesn't it

 

[Sonny Crockett]

This is starting to sound like UAL-US Airways from 8 years ago....history does repeat doesn't it

Except back then it was....


USAir boys saying:

"Its GONNA Happen"

"DOH"

"Send me some 747-400 Manuals"


We even had guys on the jumpseat(USAir boys) making comments about how DOH was the only way! USAir had what? 3-5 A330's? Give me a break!

 

[bpapaDC8]

Yep, lived through that nonsense, this one will sure get interesting before its done

 

[sleeves]

Relative seniority seems pretty fair to me. If you are at 50% then you should be merged into roughly 50% in the new company.

 

[imadumbpilot]

A while back I saw a combined seniority list, UAL/CAL, it was actually pretty interesting. Senior guys at CAL did extremely well, then mid seniority at UAL did very well, and junior guys at CAL did well because at the time CAL had not hired 1999-2001, and UAL had been hiring the whole time.

Anyway, it just goes to show that it depended where you were on the seniority list as to how well DOH did for you. It is also why DOH is not a part of ALPA merger policy.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

I do believe it's the civil way, but I'm sure there are the "DOH or burn it down!" group on both sides. We all want our lives to continue, and Not be MORE jaded (if that's possible with this career). Good luck to all. I still think 5 year fence, but we now must add 5 more for the old farts, herpes, retreads, who continue to come back, and bitch about their kids not getting on! Way too funny, but 10 year fences. It's a lot, but everyone will see the same corner of the "big picture" by then, I hope.

10 years, who am I kidding. we'll all be working at the car wash by then! It's all ball bearings fellas, 220 221 whatever it takes!

 

[skywdriver]

Relative seniority seems pretty fair to me. If you are at 50% then you should be merged into roughly 50% in the new company.

I think CAL can reasonably argue against relative seniority based on career expectations. CAL has orders for airplanes and UAL has none. However, I guess UAL can argue that all the recent CAL retirements have been a huge cause for all the hiring. UAL's big retirement numbers are still a couple of years more down the line than CAL's and after a merger both pilot groups will benefit from those retirements, so both pilot groups should benefit from the current airplane orders CAL has. It would/will be interesting, no perfect answer. I am still curious how the scope clause will be handled. It would be a great chance for them to take back some of the flying that has been lost the past years.

 

[Furloughed80]

A while back I saw a combined seniority list, UAL/CAL, it was actually pretty interesting. Senior guys at CAL did extremely well, then mid seniority at UAL did very well, and junior guys at CAL did well because at the time CAL had not hired 1999-2001, and UAL had been hiring the whole time.

Senior CAL pilots selling junior CAL pilots down the river for their own benefit would not surprise me at all. It has pretty much become tradition here. I just hope us junior CAL pilots can get organized and vocal.

 

[IronCityBlue]

I think CAL can reasonably argue against relative seniority based on career expectations. CAL has orders for airplanes and UAL has none. However, I guess UAL can argue that all the recent CAL retirements have been a huge cause for all the hiring. UAL's big retirement numbers are still a couple of years more down the line than CAL's and after a merger both pilot groups will benefit from those retirements, so both pilot groups should benefit from the current airplane orders CAL has. It would/will be interesting, no perfect answer. I am still curious how the scope clause will be handled. It would be a great chance for them to take back some of the flying that has been lost the past years.

Other than the last year's worth of new hires, who would almost certainlly get DOH, I think either group would be hard pressed to convince anyone they deserve more than relative seniority. CAL only has 46 widebodies, and 10 of those are 767-200's which are likely going to be phased out sooner than later, but even if not, they only have 46. UAL has 117. CAL has some on order while UAL doesn't, but its completely unreasonable to think a pilot gets credit for all orders and options. Orders can and will be cancelled on a dime. Unless its on property it means very, very little.

UAL has said they are seriouslly contemplating a new widebody order. And in any case, they operate, actually on property, far more widebodies than CAL. UAL could go for the moon with that angle, and CAL could go for it with the recent retirement catapult and flash in the pan 2 year captain fluke, but it would be in neither pilot group's interest to "east/west" the deal should it go down, and additionally be aprooved. Both pilot groups will need to swallow their pride get a fair deal done almost immediately.

 

[flygirlqt]

Senior CAL pilots selling junior CAL pilots down the river for their own benefit would not surprise me at all. It has pretty much become tradition here. I just hope us junior CAL pilots can get organized and vocal.

It is pretty much of a tradition industry wide. It is also one that needs to change.

 

[flatspin7]

Other than the last year's worth of new hires, who would almost certainlly get DOH, I think either group would be hard pressed to convince anyone they deserve more than relative seniority. CAL only has 46 widebodies, and 10 of those are 767-200's which are likely going to be phased out sooner than later, but even if not, they only have 46. UAL has 117. CAL has some on order while UAL doesn't, but its completely unreasonable to think a pilot gets credit for all orders and options. Orders can and will be cancelled on a dime. Unless its on property it means very, very little.

UAL has said they are seriouslly contemplating a new widebody order. And in any case, they operate, actually on property, far more widebodies than CAL. UAL could go for the moon with that angle, and CAL could go for it with the recent retirement catapult and flash in the pan 2 year captain fluke, but it would be in neither pilot group's interest to "east/west" the deal should it go down, and additionally be aprooved. Both pilot groups will need to swallow their pride get a fair deal done almost immediately.

First of All a DOH integration is impossible with the CAL seniority list... its already a scrambled mess dating back to the strike and then the New York Air, People Express, Fronteir mergers.

Relative Seniority would the fair way to go, with either fences at the top or a bit of a ratio for the top 20%

 

[Kugelblitz]

Senior CAL pilots selling junior CAL pilots down the river for their own benefit would not surprise me at all. It has pretty much become tradition here. I just hope us junior CAL pilots can get organized and vocal.

Amen; sad but true as far as selling us out. Fine tradition we have here. And to think we have uniform police....like our appearance is our biggest image problem.

 

[DrewBlows]

Why does someone bring up DOH every time a merger possibility is mentioned. It isn't part of the ALPA merger policy and, frankly, makes about as much sense as integrating based on flight time. A merger is not a lottery ticket for some to prosper at the expense of others. If you are an FO before a merger you should be an FO after the merger, if you could reasonably expect to upgrade in a certain amount of time before the merger you should reasonably expect to upgrade in about the same amount of time after the merger.

Union leaders need to educate people what to expect so they can focus on important things like scope, work rules, and pay (in that order). A merger is an opportunity for pilots to get their house in order so they can have real leverage during the next round of negotiating.