A challenge to the Flexjet Pilots on the fence or against a union

[993_Pilot]

Quite a few postings to my last post, so I?ll make a little statement and then respond to several of them....

Too lazy to even come up with a unique post for 3 different threads? Once again, cherry-picking what you will respond to, and refusing to answer the hard questions. I bet you're glad this is just about over.

First, I?m not RH, never have been, don?t look like him, etc. I realize your need to focus your hatred, vitriol, and bile on him or someone else in management, but I?m not him....

I could care less whether you are RH or not, but good for you. Maybe you will still have a job after the vote. I don't need to focus any " hatred, vitriol, and bile" on anyone, but I will attempt to get you to prove your claims, which we all recognize as mostly just the repeated lies of management.

I?ve seen from the beginning how the IBT has tried to infiltrate this company, and it?s disgusting. It uses character assasination, demonization, and the Big Lie as its main weapons against management. It uses faux-respect schemes @VUH and pretty sophisticated psychological tricks (i.e. hot buttons) to manipulate members to do it?s bidding. And it, apparently, works?there?s quite a few of you wanna-be?s, possibly a majority.....

It isn't character assassination to call a proven liar, exactly what he is. Infiltrate?... we are your fellow employees, not outsiders. You seem to think there is some big coordinated effort by the IBT to demonize management, when it is really just a bunch of pilots individually calling it like they see it. Obviously management is always 100% unifed, and on the same talking points (which you seem to happily repeat), but unions are never 100% unified, and the vast majority of what you see posted in support of unionization is independent posts by the person who wrote it. The tired old argument that the union is some third party is wearing thin, and your continued contentions to the contrary prove that you are either ignorant of how the union really operates, or intentionally spreading lies to further your purpose.

...You?ve made prediction after prediction on THIS BOARD about broke airplanes, work-rules violations, rolling rest, etc, etc NONE OF WHICH HAS COME TRUE since we were bought. The ONLY conclusion I come to is this?you LIED ABOUT THESE THINGS, AND YOU?LL LIE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE IN ORDER TO TAKE CONTROL OF THIS COMPANY.....

This is the history of Flight Options right after the merger with Travel Air, and maybe you should listen to those who actually lived through it. If you had lived through it, you would probably warn the next group too. I have said it before, and I'll say it again, KR is being a little smarter this time around. This time he is trying to incentivize the pilots to push themselves with his red-label bonus structure. Same old dog, with a new trick.

....The IBT is unscrupolous, unethical in their business, and corrupt. They?ve been mob-affilliated since Bobby Kennedy went after the first Jimmy Hoffa in the 60?s. They?ve just been recommended to be put back under FEDERAL-SUPERVISION AGAIN....

Another half truth at best. You are once again talking about days gone by and sensationalizing the results of one recent independent audit of the Ohio Conference of Teamsters. As near as I can tell, they are an arm of the teamsters that is supposed to promote unionization and activism in the state of Ohio, not an entity that has any control or say in what happens at the local 1108. Now, I won't argue that it is a well run office, but they were recommended to have a trustee run it, not put under "Federal Supervision". This isn't representative of the 1.2 million members of the IBT as a whole, and certainly not representative of the 1108, and the pilots who volunteer their personal time to run it.

....These are my feelings I?ve developed over the past 2 years working under DAC. I?m betting the remainder of my career on the company, NOT the IBT. The IBT declared war 2 years ago....

Nobody has declared war, and in fact we all want OneSky to be very successful, we simply want the opportunities and fruits of our labor to be be distributed in a fair and predictable manner. That is what having a union will ensure. Lots of companies are very successful with unionized work forces, and there is absolutely no reason to believe that OneSky can't be too. Once the votes are tallied, it will be completely up to management to decide what relationship they want to have with their employees going forward.

 

[exagony]

Warlord 19,
I'll repost until you answer.

WL,
We are still waiting for the copy of the transcripts that proves that you didn't say " that you thought it would be insulting to the dog if someone sent dog feces through the us mail to the IBT1108 Office". Please provide the transcript to prove you are not lying.

Please provide the names of companies in recent history that the 1108 represented that merged lists via DOH. Names of companies and dates please. You have been spouting off about how the SLI is going to be date of hire because you claim its how the 1108 has always done it. Please back up your claim with the companies and dates, otherwise it will just prove you have no credibility.

 

[warlord19]

993:
Yes, I?ll be glad when Dec.15th arrives..there?s a lot more things I?d rather do than spend an hour a day doing this?.but this is necessary, as you guys won?t quit, and neither will I.

Not too lazy to post unique things on three threads?it?s just more efficient in getting the word out to VOTE NO.

Cap?n Crunch/minions under him orchestrates most of the IBT responses on Yammer?they are often cut and paste pieces right off the IBT press. There are several writers that do express their own feelings and that is good.

I get most of my information from postings on Yammer, fellow Flex pilots, and in the field talking to FO pilots. You project the aura of invincibility on this board, but I believe it will be a very tight race as more fence-sitters see the truth about the IBT. If your side is voted out, does that mean more than half the pilots are stupid, ignorant, and void of common sense to you? To me it will mean they have evaluated the IBT for what it is, rejected their bully-boy tactics, and chosen to work with management to bring back a culture and work attitude that will ensure our future success. I have no problem partnering with an HONEST UNION (the local is probably honest, but the ultimate leadership and part of YOUR DUES goes to the CORRUPT NATIONAL UNION), and it is from the NATIONAL UNION that your company-destroying tactics, demagoguery, and character assassination derive.

You(IBT?ers) write both here and other places that you want to work with the company?that is horse-sh*t. How can calling our boss Hitler and other despicable names create an atmosphere of togetherness? Your hubris not-withstanding, you write that ?once the votes are tallied, it will be COMPLETELY up to management to decide what relationship they want to have with their employees going forward.? You and your IBT ?brothers? have ALREADY established the relationship with your demonizing and demagoguery and manipulation?THIS ISN?T A GAME AND IT?S NOT GOING TO BE PRETTY.

fischman:

You ?outgrew? the IBT because ya?ll eventually figured out what they were all about.

You wrote a very excellent post and deserve a reply. I agree with your first 2 points.

1). You will make more money?ALPA proved that long ago, and NJ more recently. But the ultimate arbiter is the marketplace and what the market will bear. A union puts pressure on management to get the best pay, and that is good.

2). I?ve never personally need a union, but agree with your points.

3). As far as this goes, I?ve never been pressured to fly when it is unsafe to go, neither at Flex or DAC. Both of these places emphasize safety and apparently realize the impact an accident would have on the company. I have NO problem telling pac?s or dispatch that we can?t go because of safety concerns. Never had any negative feedback either. Most folks appreciate good judgment.

So again, VOTE NO and get rid of this despicable culture-destroying IBT, IMPROVE your and your families lives next year with market wages, and enjoy the day.
WL

 

[Honorstudent]

WL the Eboard officers are line pilots who volunteer there time to improve the quality of life for all pilots associated with the 1108. The Flight Options MEC is the same thing, while I do not know all of them, the ones I do know are very honest and have a great deal of integrity.
The Pilots I am speaking of have many years of experience in this field, their careers have been stellar. The trust this pilot group as a whole has placed in them is not because of words or empty promises, but trust that has been given as a result of actions which ultimately earned that trust, as I have stated before I been here for a very long time and have witnessed DAC management squander opportunity after opportunity to earn the trust of this pilot group and it is no different today as it was 20 some odd years ago when I began working for them. I view trust as something that has to be earned, it is not something that can be given blindly again and again only to find out someone changed there mind about how things were going to be done, In closing at the end of the day a man is only as good as his word and when that word is found to be a lie, the employees are left with only one viable option.
VOTE YES FOR IBT1108
HS

 

[993_Pilot]

...Cap?n Crunch/minions under him orchestrates most of the IBT responses on Yammer?they are often cut and paste pieces right off the IBT press. There are several writers that do express their own feelings and that is good....

I wouldn't know, they don't let us on Yammer. I guess Mr. Ricci doesn't want the Flex pilots to hear the opinions of the Flight Options pilots, or have those pilots counter managements version of "reality", and that was management's only hope for winning the vote.

...I get most of my information from postings on Yammer, fellow Flex pilots, and in the field talking to FO pilots. You project the aura of invincibility on this board, but I believe it will be a very tight race as more fence-sitters see the truth about the IBT....

I'm still willing to make a friendly wager with you... Let's say whichever one of us is on the losing side gives $100 to the charity of the winner's choice? You can even donate under your pseudonym.

...If your side is voted out, does that mean more than half the pilots are stupid, ignorant, and void of common sense to you? To me it will mean they have evaluated the IBT for what it is, rejected their bully-boy tactics, and chosen to work with management to bring back a culture and work attitude that will ensure our future success....

No, it would only mean that too many of the Flex pilots fell for KR's lies. The Travel Air pilots fell for them back in 2002, but I am willing to bet that the majority of the Flexjet pilots are smarter than that today, because KR's history is fairly well documented and his reputation is widely known.

...I have no problem partnering with an HONEST UNION (the local is probably honest, but the ultimate leadership and part of YOUR DUES goes to the CORRUPT NATIONAL UNION), and it is from the NATIONAL UNION that your company-destroying tactics, demagoguery, and character assassination derive....

So you would actually support having a union? That's great, because KR needs a check & balance, and I highly encourage you to read his book to learn for yourself why. So, if you aren't against unionization altogether, then how about you start encouraging everyone to vote YES, and if you still don't think the IBT 1108 is where it's at after a year, then we follow in Netjets footsteps? If we give KR a year, he will continue to destroy seniority and play favorites, and that's a non-starter.

...You(IBT?ers) write both here and other places that you want to work with the company?that is horse-sh*t. How can calling our boss Hitler and other despicable names create an atmosphere of togetherness? Your hubris not-withstanding, you write that ?once the votes are tallied, it will be COMPLETELY up to management to decide what relationship they want to have with their employees going forward.? You and your IBT ?brothers? have ALREADY established the relationship with your demonizing and demagoguery and manipulation?THIS ISN?T A GAME AND IT?S NOT GOING TO BE PRETTY...

It is not horse-sh*t. First of all, the union has no control over what I or any other member says here or anywhere else. Secondly, we are all adults here. Both sides are doing their best to win the vote, and nobody, especially the leadership of either side, should take any of this personally. If management wins the vote, then it is obviously up to them to decide what type of relationship they want to build with their workforce. (Hint: awarding positions out of seniority and playing favorites won't help build a culture of trust) If the union wins the vote, then management can choose to honor that, or continue to fight it. So, once again it is completely up to management to decide what type of relationship they want to build with their workforce. So far KR has NEVER tried to work with the union, so it has been a constant fight, but that has been his choice, not the unions. After the vote, if management negotiates in good faith, everyone will be excited and eager to do a great job (Good for the company), but if management instead chooses to stall and drag things out, the pilots will understandably get frustrated, and that will probably affect their job performance (Bad for the company)! Going forward, it would be Sooooooo much better if both sides negotiate hard and bang out a win/win CBA in 6 months or less, so then we can all go out and kick butt in the marketplace. Probably wishful thinking on my part, but it is possible and would make a good new-years resolution for Mr. Ricci.

 

[BlueNose]

993:
So again, VOTE NO and get rid of this despicable culture-destroying IBT, IMPROVE your and your families lives next year with market wages, and enjoy the day.
WL

In 2002, Options 'bought' Travel Air from RTN (not really, but that's how it was sold; a year and a half later, when KR & Co couldn't pay the note, RTN was forced to take back the combined company they didn't want). I was on the FO side, but pre-merger the TA pilots had a better schedule, better avg pay, better vacation and sick days, RTN stock plan, a pension; we had better ... actually I can't think of anything (unless you count the SFO program, which I don't). But we were a young and eager group, willing to work hard to help the company succeed.

The TA guys were in the middle of a union drive, so Kenn made a full court press to them (pre-sale, since it would have been illegal for RTN to make those promises, or for him to do it once the sale completed). Trust me, he said, and once we combine the pilots will have the best from both companies. Sounded good to us on the FO side, too. So when the vote came, the TA pilots voted against unionizing, the merger went ahead, and guess what we got? Nothing. We on the FO side didn't get any better pay or benefits, the TA guys lost what they had and were reduced to our pay and benefits. Much bitterness, especially on their side, ensued.

Kenn was eventually forced out by corporate RTN, and things got even worse under a new pilot-hating CEO, ensuring a successful union vote a couple of years later. But make no mistake, all the initial decisions to make false promises to the pilot group during the merger, and then failure to follow through, bringing everyone down to the level of the lowest-paid group - that was all KR and his team. Well, it's deja vu all over again. Kenn's back in charge. SFO is back, under a different name. Here we are with a newly-acquired company to integrate, and a new pilot group with better pay and benefits, being promised great things if they'll just vote down the union. Except this time you have a large group on the other side who've already lived this once. We've read the book, we know the ending. If you convince yourselves this time will be different, then you're letting hope triumph over experience.

 

[Praetorian]

In 2002, Options 'bought' Travel Air from RTN (not really, but that's how it was sold; a year and a half later, when KR & Co couldn't pay the note, RTN was forced to take back the combined company they didn't want). I was on the FO side, but pre-merger the TA pilots had a better schedule, better avg pay, better vacation and sick days, RTN stock plan, a pension; we had better ... actually I can't think of anything (unless you count the SFO program, which I don't). But we were a young and eager group, willing to work hard to help the company succeed.

The TA guys were in the middle of a union drive, so Kenn made a full court press to them (pre-sale, since it would have been illegal for RTN to make those promises, or for him to do it once the sale completed). Trust me, he said, and once we combine the pilots will have the best from both companies. Sounded good to us on the FO side, too. So when the vote came, the TA pilots voted against unionizing, the merger went ahead, and guess what we got? Nothing. We on the FO side didn't get any better pay or benefits, the TA guys lost what they had and were reduced to our pay and benefits. Much bitterness, especially on their side, ensued.

Kenn was eventually forced out by corporate RTN, and things got even worse under a new pilot-hating CEO, ensuring a successful union vote a couple of years later. But make no mistake, all the initial decisions to make false promises to the pilot group during the merger, and then failure to follow through, bringing everyone down to the level of the lowest-paid group - that was all KR and his team. Well, it's deja vu all over again. Kenn's back in charge. SFO is back, under a different name. Here we are with a newly-acquired company to integrate, and a new pilot group with better pay and benefits, being promised great things if they'll just vote down the union. Except this time you have a large group on the other side who've already lived this once. We've read the book, we know the ending. If you convince yourselves this time will be different, then you're letting hope triumph over experience.

There it is in a nutshell guys ^^^. Exactly how I remember it.

 

[Honorstudent]

Agreed Blue Nose is spot on, that is exactly the way I remember it! WL19 should learn to listen to those of us that have already been where he wants to go, and it's not Shan-gra-la for the pilots.

 

[slowtation capt]

Arkitec, I?ll kindly spell your name correctly when your side decides it?s childish to disrespect my company, it?s management, and me, with their various name-calling

993- you and your fellow lemmings

Cap?n Crunch

Buckaroo

The IBT, demonization of management
WL

Just my observation, sure seems like warlord (maybe Call of Duty?19, or Gears of War?19, maybe this is it http://warlordgames.com/ )

Is doing most of the demonization here.

 

[warlord19]

It’s getting late and been up a while but here’s a few comments for the various posts:

Many comments were made about the 2002 broken promises….that was 13 years ago….are you telling me that someone, anyone, would continue working for a company that corrupt for 13 years(today)….I dunno, maybe some of you would. I do know I only hear one side of the story from proven liars with a big agenda to fill, so your “stories” don’t hold much water for me.

“So you actually support having a union?” I’ve said on this board several times I’m not anti-union, just ANTI-IBT, and that there are companies that need unions, especially in past times. That point seems to go over your heads. Nowadays unions are rejected by all kinds of workers because workers have figured out how corrupt and inefficient most unions are. Japanese and European unions work with management and produce superior products. Would you rather drive a Chevy Impala or BMW…their about the same price. All I’m saying is the IBT is a poisonous, management-hating entity that will do and say anything to get a foot in the door. I see and hear this every day. They have torn my company apart (please save your platitudes for someone else) and encourage this “give it to the man” attitude that will cause the company to falter and eventually fail if they are voted in. It’s not surprising the NJ folks want them in our company…it would give their faltering operation a huge boost to tell potential clients the competition voted in the IBT.

And finally, the stupidest thing I’ve seen posted her yet…”this isn’t personal”. You’re right… it’s way beyond personal. Calling management stupid, ignorant, Hitler etc is way beyond personal.

If FO/FLEX pilots would like to gain some semblance of a culture and start making market wages and reap the benefits from working with management you need to VOTE NO. Management is not the enemy. This culture destroying misguided gang of hooligans is your true enemy. You have an opportunity to throw off their shakles and enjoy the fruits of your labor soon. Vote them in and your insured of years of below par everything and will find yourself in a race to the bottom. It’s your choice. VOTE NO!
WL