9e / XJ Integration

[DoinTime]

The difference is that the situation you describe wasn't a merger. Those guys could have stayed at Express and gone to MEM. I don't blame them for not wanting to move, but I hope no one brings that up as an example of what should/might happen. Mesaba didn't owe them a thing when that happened. To give them any seniority was a gift. (I'm not trying to sound like a harda**, that's just the way it is... Some of those guys are really cool and I felt for them).

Every statement made so far by both management groups has been that the PCL/XJ transaction IS NOT a merger. XJ pilots will be able to stay at XJ if they choose and will then be merged with Colgan.

Mesaba has lost planes and flying to other ALPA carriers before and no one offered us jobs. I'm not whining, just saying it's not apples to apples here.

You've also received planes from other ALPA carriers and not offered any jobs.

This HAS to be a merger using DOH, relative seniority, and whatever else but it can't be a "X for 1" kind of thing or there will be a riot. This time, everyone is in the cess pool together.

Read above on that this has not been announced that it is a merger. I don't claim to know how it will all go down but from the way its been announced this looks like a very similar transaction to LOA 21.

 

[CoATP]

You've also received planes from other ALPA carriers and not offered any jobs.

Didn't NW move 9E CRJ200's to XJ when they wouldn't sign a congtract? Did the pilots move with seniority?

 

[higney85]

Didn't NW move 9E CRJ200's to XJ when they wouldn't sign a congtract? Did the pilots move with seniority?

The airframes were moved after the signing of the 2007 ASA with a March 31,2008 ALPA contract deadline. When a contract obviously didn't happen we lost 16 or 17 -200's with no emloyment arrangements. We didn't have a fat staffing situation due to attrition and the transition was not instantaneous. The LOA is undoubtedly in play by mgmt due to cost savings but the Sli discussion is still theories with every group looking at what would help or hurt the most.

 

[Minnesotan]

Didn't NW move 9E CRJ200's to XJ when they wouldn't sign a congtract? Did the pilots move with seniority?

Mesaba took those planes with open arms and acted as if they were theirs all along. Ever since that happened, I have no respect for ALPA as a union, to me its just a 1400 dollar a year magazine subscription.

I don't blame the Mesaba pilots for this, I blame management and ALPA. What kind of union would allow this, its complete utter bull crap.

 

[Grinder10]

Pinnacle Corp. bought Mesaba to be merged with Colgan and operate beside Pinnacle Inc. Once Colgan and Mesaba are merged the jets will be transferred to Pinnacle Inc. When this happens management will invoke the LOA to offer Mesaba pilots employment at Pinnacle Inc. or face a furlough from the now massively overstaffed Colgan.

Just a theory about what our devious management might try.

 

[xjgearbtch]

You guys need to see the weekly, daily message, posted in MEM and MSP dated July 9, 2010. The way I read it, PNCL management believes that the Mesaba jets are an "asset," that will be tranferred to Pinnacle. They see Mesaba and Colgan as being merged, people and assets.

Our ALPA contract states in section one if the planes get transferred so do our pilots. Our DO who has been in extensive talks drew up a real nice diagram for our class the other day. PNCL holdings will control to airlines 9E and XJ with ONE senority list. Even management knows that will be the most cost effective procedure. With the flow-thru going away, our pittbull union reps won't be leaving anytime soon. They'll fight for a single seniority list till it bleeds dry. We learned our lesson from Big Sky, no more whip shaw.

 

[RJLoser]

Are you saying XJ pilots who are on the jets and 9E one list or all XJ and 9E pilots on one list?

 

[dondk]

Our ALPA contract states in section one if the planes get transferred so do our pilots. Our DO who has been in extensive talks drew up a real nice diagram for our class the other day. PNCL holdings will control to airlines 9E and XJ with ONE senority list. Even management knows that will be the most cost effective procedure. With the flow-thru going away, our pittbull union reps won't be leaving anytime soon. They'll fight for a single seniority list till it bleeds dry. We learned our lesson from Big Sky, no more whip shaw.

a what if...

What if this becomes too much aggravation for PNCL? they decide to liquidate XJ. No union, no contract, nothing would prevent them from just taking the airframes and doing what they want.

Read a few post up, it is not a MERGER, it is an acquisition. PNCL now owns the airframes and can do what they want, how they want and when they want.

I pray that you get your SLI, but I don't see the benefit for management at all. Remember, the company will do what is best for them, not what best for the pilots or the union.

 

[xjgearbtch]

a what if...

What if this becomes too much aggravation for PNCL? they decide to liquidate XJ. No union, no contract, nothing would prevent them from just taking the airframes and doing what they want.

Read a few post up, it is not a MERGER, it is an acquisition. PNCL now owns the airframes and can do what they want, how they want and when they want.

I pray that you get your SLI, but I don't see the benefit for management at all. Remember, the company will do what is best for them, not what best for the pilots or the union.

Should of clarified better. One list with all three pilot groups merged together. Our DO made it out that the company(PNCL Holdings) is on board for the one list. It is up to the pilot groups to determine the seniority integration issues. They will be merging Crew Scheduling, Payroll, Medical, training departments, etc. It is financially effective to merge the three pilot groups quickly.

They can take the airframes but our pilots go with them. Keep in mind when they "acquired" Mesaba, they acquired our contract as well. PNCL is fresh off the example of the Delta/NWA merger. The timelines for the merger are template similar to the mainline merger. The company doesn't want a fiasco like UsAirways or how the Frontier issues that are arising. The company will do what is best for the company, but they also understand that, that involves with dealing with union contracts. Take a deep breath there will not be a liquidation. There will be two companies with one seniority list.

My true interest is the negotiations that will commence from here. Will 9E get a contract signed quickly? I truly hope we can get all three contracts together, cherry pick the issues and work for the best that we can get out of all three. (NWA/Delta pilots did this to). I'm glad to know our unions are not stuck on step .0001, they've moved past the liquidation thoughts on here and will move us in the right direction. Getting the Mesaba furloughed pilots flying at Colgan and Pinnacle is the first stated priority of company and the union. This only furthers the trend towards a single seniority list.

Good luck guys, let's make the best out of this. Enjoy the new coffee cups.

PS do they fit in a CRJ cupholder? http://forums.flightinfo.com/images...forums.flightinfo.com/images/icons/icon21.gif

 

[Ridgeback]

a what if...

What if this becomes too much aggravation for PNCL? they decide to liquidate XJ. No union, no contract, nothing would prevent them from just taking the airframes and doing what they want.

Read a few post up, it is not a MERGER, it is an acquisition. PNCL now owns the airframes and can do what they want, how they want and when they want.

I pray that you get your SLI, but I don't see the benefit for management at all. Remember, the company will do what is best for them, not what best for the pilots or the union.

Don't forget they need to get ride of the Colgan name and certificate...hence why they need Mesaba ans Pinnicle...imagaine if all the flying was under ONE airline and another Q400 crashes or this time passengers are on the plane when pilots decide to switch seats...with only one airline they have to backup

 

[RJLoser]

Don't forget they need to get ride of the Colgan name and certificate...hence why they need Mesaba ans Pinnicle...imagaine if all the flying was under ONE airline and another Q400 crashes or this time passengers are on the plane when pilots decide to switch seats...with only one airline they have to backup

Impressive. Both spelling and tact.

 

[DoinTime]

The company doesn't want a fiasco like UsAirways or how the Frontier issues that are arising. The company will do what is best for the company, but they also understand that, that involves with dealing with union contracts.

Have you been paying attention to the nearly six years of pilot contract negotiations at PCL? They DO NOT understand that they have to deal with labor.

There will be two companies with one seniority list.

The bigger question is how many pilot contracts will there be and what kind of transportability there will be between company lines. The first TA at PCL had a holding company agreement that dictated combined seniority between PCL and other airlines owned by the holding company but it did not mandate a common contract or specify how one could get back and forth between company lines. I understand that this agreement is already locked in for the next TA.

 

[CptMurf]

Let's keep in mind that 9E DID NOT BUY XJ... Pinnacle Holdings bought XJ

Now, with that being said... XJ's contract has successership provisions for being bought and also for a transfer of a large portion of the fleet (>=40%).

In the being bought outright section. The purchaser must agree to and abid by the terms of our contract. XJ as a turboprop only operator will keep XJ's contract at a minimum. Which as a side note would make our Q-400 CAs higher paid than 9E's 200 CAs.

In the transfer of fleet section. It states our pilots will go with the aircraft.

So, mgmts. decision is to either
1. create one senority list with ALPA deciding integration
2. create two senority lists with integration with XJ-9E on one side and XJ-Colgan on the other.
It will be easier and cheaper to create one list.

Now as far as integration... I dunno. DOH screws 9E and Colgan guys. Percentage screws XJ and 9E guys. I'm sure there will be some multi-faceted formula to screw everyone. It's not fair unless no one is happy.

Lastly 9E contract... If I were a 9E negotiator, I would walk XJ's contract into the arbitrator and say "In an effort to streamline integration, we want this contract "as is", to include Dec. 10 snapbacks." This would aid combining us, and also give the company a 2 year window to get things straightened out. Negotiations would start next December.

 

[SEVEN]

...........

Let's keep in mind that 9E DID NOT BUY XJ... Pinnacle Holdings bought XJ

Now, with that being said... XJ's contract has successership provisions for being bought and also for a transfer of a large portion of the fleet (>=40%).

In the being bought outright section. The purchaser must agree to and abid by the terms of our contract. XJ as a turboprop only operator will keep XJ's contract at a minimum. Which as a side note would make our Q-400 CAs higher paid than 9E's 200 CAs.

In the transfer of fleet section. It states our pilots will go with the aircraft.

So, mgmts. decision is to either
1. create one senority list with ALPA deciding integration
2. create two senority lists with integration with XJ-9E on one side and XJ-Colgan on the other.
It will be easier and cheaper to create one list.

Now as far as integration... I dunno. DOH screws 9E and Colgan guys. Percentage screws XJ and 9E guys. I'm sure there will be some multi-faceted formula to screw everyone. It's not fair unless no one is happy.

Lastly 9E contract... If I were a 9E negotiator, I would walk XJ's contract into the arbitrator and say "In an effort to streamline integration, we want this contract "as is", to include Dec. 10 snapbacks." This would aid combining us, and also give the company a 2 year window to get things straightened out. Negotiations would start next December.

Well said Captain Murf.

 

[1.3XVso]

Let's keep in mind that 9E DID NOT BUY XJ... Pinnacle Holdings bought XJ

Now, with that being said... XJ's contract has successership provisions for being bought and also for a transfer of a large portion of the fleet (>=40%).

In the being bought outright section. The purchaser must agree to and abid by the terms of our contract. XJ as a turboprop only operator will keep XJ's contract at a minimum. Which as a side note would make our Q-400 CAs higher paid than 9E's 200 CAs.

In the transfer of fleet section. It states our pilots will go with the aircraft.

So, mgmts. decision is to either
1. create one senority list with ALPA deciding integration
2. create two senority lists with integration with XJ-9E on one side and XJ-Colgan on the other.
It will be easier and cheaper to create one list.

Now as far as integration... I dunno. DOH screws 9E and Colgan guys. Percentage screws XJ and 9E guys. I'm sure there will be some multi-faceted formula to screw everyone. It's not fair unless no one is happy.

Lastly 9E contract... If I were a 9E negotiator, I would walk XJ's contract into the arbitrator and say "In an effort to streamline integration, we want this contract "as is", to include Dec. 10 snapbacks." This would aid combining us, and also give the company a 2 year window to get things straightened out. Negotiations would start next December.

I want you guys to head over this way already to show what balls are.