9e / XJ Integration

[higney85]

Kell... You are following me.. You do that too much and I put you to work! MSA CBA 1.D.1 is interesting in that it says "offer employment". The LOA #6 has a poison pill of "effective for 15 years" and was effective in 1997. I see ways both sides can maneuver with that language. I'm staying neutral on here and have already been talking with one of the MSA reps. Nobody is out to screw anybody- our biggest issue (from all carriers under the Corp umbrella) is the fact that the company wants to pay as little as possible on labor- the ability to slash XJ seniority/longevity by half is big dollar signs in their eyes. The MEC's will get together and look at all options, we are still waiting on hearing what the company's "plan" is. I put up a ton of copy/paste facts so everyone can be on the same page with actual contract language, as much as Internet forums and facts seem to want to be offset.

 

[CptMurf]

From the MEC reps that I have talked to. Our unions are playing better than the FI fodder. The idea of staple, or 1-3 is not going to happen. No one is pushing for it. And there is a position to self help if it is imposed.

Use all that energy to integrated the list FAIRLY between all the groups, and force the best of all the contracts on them. Look at the DAL/NWA merger. List integration cost some seniority, but didn't cost huge sums of money, downgrades, or furloughs. In the end it was a smooth transition. That's what we need. If you get your panties in a wad, there will be a huge fight, and nobody wants that.

 

[CptMurf]

Kell... You are following me.. You do that too much and I put you to work! MSA CBA 1.D.1 is interesting in that it says "offer employment". The LOA #6 has a poison pill of "effective for 15 years" and was effective in 1997. I see ways both sides can maneuver with that language. I'm staying neutral on here and have already been talking with one of the MSA reps. Nobody is out to screw anybody- our biggest issue (from all carriers under the Corp umbrella) is the fact that the company wants to pay as little as possible on labor- the ability to slash XJ seniority/longevity by half is big dollar signs in their eyes. The MEC's will get together and look at all options, we are still waiting on hearing what the company's "plan" is. I put up a ton of copy/paste facts so everyone can be on the same page with actual contract language, as much as Internet forums and facts seem to want to be offset.

I'm following you too. Seems you want the LOA provisions to hold so you can be higher on the list and fly a larger aircraft. Again, LOA 6 did not modify Section 1. The list integration would be up to ALPA, and even with a 1-3 you'll be swinging my gear on a 900. Why don't you think of the greater good of everyone and not just yourself.

 

[RJLoser]

I'm following you too. Seems you want the LOA provisions to hold so you can be higher on the list and fly a larger aircraft. Again, LOA 6 did not modify Section 1. The list integration would be up to ALPA, and even with a 1-3 you'll be swinging my gear on a 900. Why don't you think of the greater good of everyone and not just yourself.

I'm all for a fair integration. The thing that really grinds my gears is that is not what was offered to our pilots. You can argue samantics about times being different but that was the agreement. The one thing that worries me is that you are forgetting who you are coming to work for. This company will walk right over you to save a buck.

 

[CptMurf]

At the time it was actually considered a courtesy. An even better one than preferential hiring (which is what most would have offered). It would be like XJ now offering Mesa seniority because we realize that they are losing NY flying and we are gaining it. There was no change of aircraft or purchase.

It grinds my gears that most that are talking about this LOA have no idea of the situation that it was used for. Also, that it wasn't reciprocated when the situation presented itself for what it was designed for (XJ 2002). I would have taken it over my downgrade and been basically a street CA. Lots of XJ guys got pink slips while 9E went from 300-1500 pilots. The stock answer then was, "We're not taking your flying. That was Northwest's flying."

It's not Mgmt. decision to impose this LOA. That is a contract between 9E and XJ pilot groups. If Mgmt. gets involved we should all walk (I know XJ will). We are not a naive pilot group. Our current MEC has felt with a NWA strike (we walked too), the 2004 contract (and pseudo strike), the BK, and the concessionary contract. I actually hope our MEC can help you guys in securing a passable TA. This process can either be mutually beneficial or it can be a huge fight. You decide.

 

[CptMurf]

One last comment on that LOA. It was signed in 1997. That means there are about 50 people on the 9E list, about 100 on the XJ list , and maybe 5 on the 9L list that are still employed by those carriers at the time that it was signed. Don't imply how the current XJ group would do the same to you, if the shoe was on the other foot. Your position on integration reflects only on the current pilot groups. If you think a 1-2 or 1-3 is fair because you think that it is quid pro quo, your truly showing how much of a tool you are.

 

[RJLoser]

Easy buddie. I never suggested anything. I just think XJ needs to remember who it's dealing with. This company will gladly slash your seniority in half with a smile if it will save them a buck. I feel its time to work together. Just don't be surprised when you lose a lot of battles. PCL has become good at this.

 

[higney85]

I'm following you too. Seems you want the LOA provisions to hold so you can be higher on the list and fly a larger aircraft. Again, LOA 6 did not modify Section 1. The list integration would be up to ALPA, and even with a 1-3 you'll be swinging my gear on a 900. Why don't you think of the greater good of everyone and not just yourself.

I at no point said I favored the LOA. You don't know me and to be honest I see multiple areas of the LOA that the MSA MEC could use to debunk it's validity. Time will tell.

 

[mesaba13]

Were we offered jobs when we went down to 49 Saabs?

 

[SEVEN]

Just don't be surprised when you lose a lot of battles. PCL has become good at this.

Uncle Phil doesn't realize who he is dealing with. Aour pilot group has been around the block a few times with management. At the end of the day, Pinnacle management might think they have the upper had, but they will be greatly misunderstood. XJ pilots will not stand for anything that is not fair and equitable. SLI with fences to protect all pilots...not just Colgan or 9E. It's hard to have backbone in a pilot group that is largely comprised of pay to fly applicants and foreign pilots who are just happy to fly a jet at any pay. Sorry to say it but it's just the way it is.....like it or not. Our MEC will take this thing to the bitter end flighting all the way down if there is some crap in the works for a 2-1 or anything close to that. We'll have to see how it plays out. I'm causiously optomistic at this point. But that could change if Phil decides to get greedy. Game on!

 

[RJLoser]

More power to you SEVEN.

 

[higney85]

Glorified type A chest beating is what the company would like. Divide and conquer. Before we start the "who's group is better" bashings keep in mind we are needing to be on the same team and one day WILL be one. Go team.

 

[Moustache]

That has less chance of flying than a wet fart in church.

That will go over like a..............................

Get it right!!!!!!

 

[sinkrate]

LOA 6 did not modify Section 1.

A lawyer will tell you it might. After signing it the Mesaba pilots had three subsequent opportunities, perhaps four, to bargain for the removal of this LOA. To my knowledge, they never attempted to. In fact, in 2003 or 04 they tried to use it to force Mesaba pilots onto the PCL list.

Instead of bashing each other look at the facts. PNCL Corp has a decision to make. They can try this under section one of both Agreements or under the LOA known as '6' in the Mesaba Agreement and '21' in PNCL's.

Section One will lead to two, possibly three Arbitrations. It will be dangerous for the Mesaba pilots to pursue. They may lose the argument over a seniority list integration and all go to PCL as new hires. This will no doubt be management’s position. Mesaba's scope is not very good on this issue. If the pilots prevail and the Arbitrator rules for an SLI then you must have another Arbitration for that. Once the SLI/Collective Bargaining representation is worked out attention will turn to the surviving CBA. Both current Agreements have a provision that all disputes in this process will be settled by Arbitration. Three or four years from now an Arbitrator will hand you your next Agreement. It will most likely be of short duration. Advantage to PNCL Corp - no possibility of a declaration of Impasse for 5 or 6 years but the Mesaba pilots may bring all their longevity with them. If they come to PCL as new hires it will be a big win for mangement. Second advantage - the entire process is interest Arbitration with little negotiation.

If it is done under the LOA it may or may not result in Arbitration. If the Mesaba pilots do not want to accept this they may take it to expedited Arbitration under Section one of their Agreement. If they are successful then the process above starts. If they are not - PCL will have a very angry pilot group that is still in section Six negotiations. This is a risk management will be very loath to take.

A third avenue would be to attempt to negotiate with both pilot groups. The resulting Agreement would have to be no less favorable to the company than the current agreement. They know that won't happen.
If you take what management has written at face value they do not consider this a merger or acquisition. They are going to force the Mesaba pilots to make some very tough decisions.

 

[Flyer1015]

Pinnacle management might think they have the upper had, but they will be greatly misunderstood. XJ pilots will not stand for anything that is not fair and equitable.

Oh yes they will! Just watch. Your airline got bought. Not the other way around. Prepare to get screwed.

It's hard to have backbone in a pilot group that is largely comprised of pay to fly applicants and foreign pilots who are just happy to fly a jet at any pay. Sorry to say it but it's just the way it is.....like it or not.

Nice, can't wait until you're my FO.

Our MEC will take this thing to the bitter end flighting all the way down if there is some crap in the works for a 2-1 or anything close to that.

When all is said and done, you'll probably be praying for a 2-1.

I'm causiously optomistic at this point. But that could change if Phil decides to get greedy. Game on!

"Decides" to get greedy? They already are. All of them.