9/11-Pilots let hijackers in?

[Frontier1]

For you all that are pilots what were the rules when something like 9/11 happend?
I do not want answers for today, I would like to know the policy for pre-9/11.

Why in the world did the pilots let the hijackers in the cockpit?

 

[apdsm]

Generally, pre-9/11 everyone thought it was better to comply.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

For you all that are pilots what were the rules when something like 9/11 happend?
I do not want answers for today, I would like to know the policy for pre-9/11.

Why in the world did the pilots let the hijackers in the cockpit?

From the breifings we got shortly after 9/11, not all let them in. According to the info we got, the one over Penn. (flight 11?) had already been warned of cockpit intrusions via ACARS. Also Clevland center recorded what appeared to be a fight going on in the cockpit over a hot mike. We did not get any info about what was on the CVR. I don't think anybody but the immediate familys of the passengers and crew ever heard what was recorded by the CVR. (If at all.)

But as was said before, mostly the procedures were more geared toward compliance. This was due to the hijack experiences from the 70's and the bad guys mostly wanting a free ride and some political demands heard. The suicide terrorist was new to the airline industry. At least in the U.S.

 

[CSY Mon]

We did not consider the Rag-Head factor.....

Big mistake...Never again

 

[Pugh]

Big mistake...Never again

That depends on whether or not we can work together to prevent it.

 

[rumpletumbler]

They were eager to join satan and receive their million demon lava vaginas.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

We did not consider the Rag-Head factor.....

You just had to, didn't you?

 

[ThomasR]

They were eager to join satan and receive their million demon lava vaginas.

Has anyone wondered where these 32 virgins come from promised to the faithful in the after life?

32 virgins are sacrificed [beheaded] as an annual ritual tribute to Allah. Historical from the times of the old testament. A practice honored by the Hittites, Babylonians and other primitive tribes. Human sacrifices were common among the early Israelites as well.

 

[FlyingSig]

After his death, Osama Bin Laden went to heaven. There he was greeted by George Washington, who proceeded to slap him across the face and yell at him, "How dare you try to destroy the nation I helped conceive!"

Patrick Henry approached and punched Osama in the nose and shouted,"You wanted to end our liberties but you failed."

James Madison entered, kicked Osama in the groin and said," This is why I allowed our government to provide for the common defense!"

Thomas Jefferson came in and proceeded to beat Osama many times with a long cane and said, "It was evil men like you that provided me the inspiration to pen the Declaration of Independence!"

These beatings and thrashings continued as John Rudolph, James Monroe and 66 other early Americans came in and unleashed their anger on the Muslim terrorist leader.

As Osama lay bleeding and writhing in unbearable pain an Angel appeared. Bin Laden wept in pain and said to the Angel, "This is not what you promised me"

The Angel replied, "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you in heaven. What did you think I said?"

 

[enigma]

For you all that are pilots what were the rules when something like 9/11 happend?
I do not want answers for today, I would like to know the policy for pre-9/11.

Why in the world did the pilots let the hijackers in the cockpit?

The official policy mandated by the FAA was to comply. Period.

The feds and the airlines apparently had received warnings about the possibility of take-over hijackings, but the word never go passed on to the crews. I don't think that our Federal government, nor the industry, conceived that the take over would/could terminate with suicide by the hijackers. I am not ready to accept that the government, even President Clinton, knowingly ignored the potential of suicide pilots using airplanes as missles. We apparently believed that hijacking would remain the venue of extortion, not death.

The policy has changed. Now, I don't open the door. Period. Sadly, there's another reason to keep away from becoming too friendly with the FA's.

regards,
enigma

 

[habubuaza]

For you all that are pilots what were the rules when something like 9/11 happend?
I do not want answers for today, I would like to know the policy for pre-9/11.

Why in the world did the pilots let the hijackers in the cockpit?

I believe many people are really confused as to how things really transpired including probably myself. However, I will say this.. I understand that some of the hijackers posed as pilots jumpseating. This is very interesting and plausible because early in 2001 I remember reading a security memo in our flight ops office warning of imposter pilots due to some AA uniforms and id's that were stolen, I believe in Rome. Does anyone else recall something like this?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I believe many people are really confused as to how things really transpired including probably myself. However, I will say this.. I understand that some of the hijackers posed as pilots jumpseating. This is very interesting and plausible because early in 2001 I remember reading a security memo in our flight ops office warning of imposter pilots due to some AA uniforms and id's that were stolen, I believe in Rome. Does anyone else recall something like this?

I never heard of anything like this. I do not beleive that any of the 9/11 hijackers were on the jumpseat. Prior to 9/11 the old cockpit doors were nothing more than show. considering that every pilot and flight attendant had a key to the cockpit doors it was not too hard for the terrorists to gain access. From what we were told, most likely they killed the cabin crew and took their keys. Two unarmed pilots seatbelted in their chairs made for an easy target once a key was aquired.

As you said things are muddled in secrecy and such. I do recall the memo on the stolen ID's but I do not think they played a part in 9/11.

 

[sky37d]

We did not consider the Rag-Head factor.....

Big mistake...Never again

You just had to, didn't you?

Yeah, he did, and he's right.

 

[FN FAL]

The suicide terrorist was new to the airline industry. At least in the U.S.

Yea, sure numbnuts...and the PSA BAC jet downing by the mass murdering disgruntled airplane mechanic and the attempted FedEx hijacking with intent to smash the aircraft into corporate headquarters, were both just "ANOMALIES".

Not to mention that prior to 9/11, air rage incidents were in the news with what seemed like a weekly occurance.

Weak and open cockpit doors in airliners always was an invitation to trouble.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Yeah, he did, and he's right.

I suppose you both freely use n*gg** as well. Racist a$$es.

 

[FN FAL]

After his death, Osama Bin Laden went to heaven. There he was greeted by George Washington, who proceeded to slap him across the face and yell at him, "How dare you try to destroy the nation I helped conceive!"

Patrick Henry approached and punched Osama in the nose and shouted,"You wanted to end our liberties but you failed."

James Madison entered, kicked Osama in the groin and said," This is why I allowed our government to provide for the common defense!"

Thomas Jefferson came in and proceeded to beat Osama many times with a long cane and said, "It was evil men like you that provided me the inspiration to pen the Declaration of Independence!"

These beatings and thrashings continued as John Rudolph, James Monroe and 66 other early Americans came in and unleashed their anger on the Muslim terrorist leader.

As Osama lay bleeding and writhing in unbearable pain an Angel appeared. Bin Laden wept in pain and said to the Angel, "This is not what you promised me"

The Angel replied, "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you in heaven. What did you think I said?"

hahaha...as someone that was born in the Portsmouth Naval Hospital, raised in Virginia and had served the US Navy in Virginia...I salute this joke as....funny!

 

[rvsm410]

I Know this cant be true.....been there..

I have just purchased my copy of the Commission report, though I have not started to read it, I find the statements made by many in government totally lame...this is just good ol smoke and mirrors statements about how they did not realize these people would use aircraft as flying bombs....its total hog washhhh.



Go back in warfare history and this method of killing goes way way back in time...many cultures considered it the ultimate sacrifice to there people and religion...

The culture in the M.E. has been known for a long time...there accepted way of life, their willingness to do "Anything" in the name of religion...the U.S. has been aware for many decades of the atrocities committed against their own people and others....including Family members....



Did you know its a standard practice in Iran/Iraq to kill a women if she is caught or has been reported to have had unmarried sex....been there to see the sentence...it was the guys own daughter!! it was terrible, but this is a custom and is considered normal....I have said it before here, these people see things totally different than we do..its been there law for centuries...we are wrong in their eyes.....period....



Living a great deal of my life in Florida, I have seen the large numbers of M.E. student aviators, our visa system promoted it, anybody could sponsor an student.....These 911 guys, were known about, but our security did nothing to stop them for coming here to learn, then do the deed as a sleeper cell....



These people are totally capable of doing any and all things imaginable, they are looking for every way to work around the system, find the next way through and use common Items to commit the deed...if its not on an airplane it will be something else...its a matter of time, unless we all participate in the recognition of strange behaviors..sad I know, but this is the reality of the situation for many years to come here in our land of open doors...



Kamikazes ring a bell? This is not knew, it’s just come to our shores....

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Yea, sure numbnuts...and the PSA BAC jet downing by the mass murdering disgruntled airplane mechanic and the attempted FedEx hijacking with intent to smash the aircraft into corporate headquarters, were both just "ANOMALIES".

Not to mention that prior to 9/11, air rage incidents were in the news with what seemed like a weekly occurance.

Weak and open cockpit doors in airliners always was an invitation to trouble.

You really are an uninformed idiot, who has never set foot in a airliner except as a passenger. Each case that you mentioned was perpitrated by an employee(FedEx,Pilot) and an ex employee (PSA, still in possesion of his ID's) Both of whom had full and complete access to the aircraft. If another pilot were suicidal today, in the "New and Improved" security system....It would still be near impossible to stop him or her.

Two cases of employees going nuts is a far cry from well organized and coordinated attacks by groups of terrorists. So to restate the obvious which seems to be continually lost on a simple minded person such as yourself, the U.S. had never dealt with such a threat before.

Cases of "Air Rage " you say? I can hardly classify a disorderly drunk (95% of the air rage incidents) any where near the same catagory as a well trained suicide squad!

 

[ThomasR]

I suppose you both freely use n*gg** as well. Racist a$$es.

I get apprehensive when someone refers to me as a "Frog" or "Kraut." Since these are in reference to a nationality I did not think Americans had any such slant because we are a group of different nationalities; but, of course, I am wrong. MeGook CheunChee is Korean meaning "Crazy American."

I wonder what people from the Middle East call us?

 

[FN FAL]

Two cases of (individual) employees going nuts is a far cry from well organized and coordinated attacks by groups of terrorists.

Yea, I guess you are right, PSA FLIGHT 1771 didn't hit the ground in one piece...because it flew past VMO in flight...making it a "far cry" from the 9/11 impacts. And because the flight crew was able to subdue the PILOT that brought hammers and a speargun onboard, they didn't get killed in the corporate attack on FedEx.

You can go back to sleep now, I am in error...there never was, nor will there have ever been, a reason to put secure cockpit doors on aircraft.

Thanks to you, we now know for a fact that psychotic individuals commiting acts of "air rage" could never attack the command center of an air carrier aircraft and only Islam Jihad types crash planes into the ground.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

I get apprehensive when someone refers to me as a "Frog" or "Kraut." Since these are in reference to a nationality I did not think Americans had any such slant because we are a group of different nationalities; but, of course, I am wrong. MeGook CheunChee is Korean meaning "Crazy American."

I wonder what people from the Middle East call us?

I'm sure they have names for us, but that's not my point. WE should set the example.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Yea, I guess you are right, PSA FLIGHT 1771 didn't hit the ground in one piece...because it flew past VMO in flight...making it a "far cry" from the 9/11 impacts. And because the flight crew was able to subdue the PILOT that brought hammers and a speargun onboard, they didn't get killed in the corporate attack on FedEx.

You can go back to sleep now, I am in error...there never was, nor will there have ever been, a reason to put secure cockpit doors on aircraft.

Becuase thanks to you, we now know for a fact that psychotic individuals commiting acts of "air rage" could never attack the command center of an air carrier aircraft and only Islam Jihad types crash planes into the ground.

Alright genius, where exactly did I say anything about not needing a secure cockpit door?

 

[FN FAL]

You really are an uninformed idiot, who has never set foot in a airliner except as a passenger.

That's funny. When I was getting walked around the RJ-85 in MSP during indoctrination (pre-9/11), the first thing I thought when I seen the cockpit doors, was that trailer trash had better closet doors on their laundry room.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

I'm sure they have names for us, but that's not my point. WE should set the example.

I think we should follow Rome's example when fighting the punic wars. They didn't have any problems with the Carthage people after the third war...

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

That's funny. When I was getting walked around the RJ-85 in MSP during indoctrination (pre-9/11), the first thing I thought when I seen the cockpit doors, was that trailer trash had better closet doors on their laundry room.

Hmmm... According to your previous posts, you are currently flying freight, working on your Bachelors Degree and then will get your ATP in a Citation or a 737. Interesting.

But if you are flying a rat jet then I do apologize. You are not uninformed, just an idiot.

Again I will ask the question about your flame of my post. Where exactly did I say anything about not needing a secure cockpit door?

 

[350DRIVER]

I believe many people are really confused as to how things really transpired including probably myself. However, I will say this.. I understand that some of the hijackers posed as pilots jumpseating. This is very interesting and plausible because early in 2001 I remember reading a security memo in our flight ops office warning of imposter pilots due to some AA uniforms and id's that were stolen, I believe in Rome. Does anyone else recall something like this?

None of the 911 hijackers "posed" as pilots according to the facts that are known to date. I do recall these uniforms being missing/stolen but these didn't do a thing on 911, all were in the back of the aircrafts on pushback.

3 5 0

 

[FN FAL]

But if you are flying a rat jet then I do apologize. You are not uninformed, just an idiot.

I never flew the rat jet as a line pilot. But I did enjoy the 500 bucks take home every two weeks for about three months.

It's my belief that those doors should have been secure and locked shut a long time ago. They were an "attractive nusiance" and they were exploited. It was only going to be a matter of time before this or something like this was going to happen.

As a passenger on many Northwest flights, before and after becoming a pilot, I could never understand why the cockpit doors were left open at all, ever. I understand that there was a regulation regarding blocking emergency exits, but I can hardly remember any civil airline crash where passengers ever had to exit the aircraft from the cockpit in an emergency. At least none where the pilots couldn't have opened the door when it was necessary.

We got caught with our pants down. They exploited the weakness that was available to them and now we have secure doors.

Now it sounds lilke they are trying to bypass the door and get through by the lavatory...as it states in this article in the Scotsman...

http://news.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=841042004

Hmmm... According to your previous posts, you are currently flying freight, working on your Bachelors Degree and then will get your ATP in a Citation or a 737. Interesting.

What's so interesting about that. Lots of people work on their Bachelors degrees, fly freight, get ATP's and buy "TYPES". If the sequence of events bothers you, you can send a donation to me via paypal and I will straighten out the chronology for you...I promise. Evidently I'm not fitting your cookie cutter mold of what your expectations are for being a "commercial pilot".

I haven't needed an ATP yet, because none of the jobs I have had yet has required them. Whether it will help me with a REAL airline job, or one with a fractional or a corporate operator... having an ATP will obviously be required up the road, but I think I am past the "ALL ATP's", bounce around in seminole phase.

I got over 1,700 multi piston in 135 operations as PIC. Several hundred hours in my own Cessna 320 Skyknight. 1,500 hours or better of turbine PIC in 135 operations. I am probably past 6,000 total flight hours and only those hours where I was getting dual for ratings are not PIC time. I plan on getting my ATP during a type ride...could be a Citation, could be a 737, or anything inbetween.

Depends on which will get me the furthest when I get done with school. I could spend 2,000 bucks at ALL ATPS to get spun up to speed in a Seminole by some nugget with a 1/5th the experience I got, or go to one of the sim places and spend three times as much and walk out with a real license in my pocket. I don't see the rush, considering the condition the industry is in and I still have better than a year before finishing my Bachelor degree.

There is a rumor that our DO is pushing on the people that decide such things to get us some of them there newly refubished ATR-42's...if that happens, I may not have to spend my own bucks to get the ATP in a type ride. Big freaking deal...I'm on my schedule. Not yours, not theirs. Even if we don't get the ATR's, the company will still pay me to get my ATP, just not enough to cover a type.

Any other questions?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I never flew the rat jet as a line pilot. But I did enjoy the 500 bucks take home every two weeks for about three months.

It's my belief that those doors should have been secure and locked shut a long time ago. They were an "attractive nusiance" and they were exploited. It was only going to be a matter of time before this or something like this was going to happen.

As a passenger on many Northwest flights, before and after becoming a pilot, I could never understand why the cockpit doors were left open at all, ever. I understand that there was a regulation regarding blocking emergency exits, but I can hardly remember any civil airline crash where passengers ever had to exit the aircraft from the cockpit in an emergency. At least none where the pilots couldn't have opened the door when it was necessary.

We got caught with our pants down. They exploited the weakness that was available to them and now we have secure doors.

Now it sounds lilke they are trying to bypass the door and get through by the lavatory...as it states in this article in the Scotsman...

http://news.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=841042004

Most of the part 125 airplanes had Cockpit doors with blowout sections in case of a depressurization event to equalize the pressure in the cabin. In the case of the Dornier 328 the door was so weak that it was not uncommon for the first row passenger to kick the panel out by accident while trying to stretch out.

The Boeing doors were a little better but still had the resistance level of a trailer park girl on prom night.

Everybody knew that security was weak but every time someone spoke up the flight crews got another enema performed while going through security while the cleaners, caterers, fuelers etc..still came through the unmonitered entrances with nothing but a pass card checked.

Pre 9/11 I was being hassled by a contract security guy about my multitool (Still legal then). I asked him if I could still keep my crash Axe in the cockpit or should I bring that back to him and cancel the flight.......his response....a blank stared "AXE!!!"

Bottom line is, the flight crews did what they were trained and required to do by the FAA, some did try to fight but really had no chance. The ball was really dropped long before the perps got on the airplanes.

EL-AL has been doing it right for 30 years. It's a shame that it took 9/11 to get the U.S. system in gear. Hopefully the programs in progress (FFDO) and the ones on the drawing board (missle defense systems) will be continued.

As a side note. In 7 years of 121 flying prior to 9/11 I never once had an Air Marshall on my airplane, A few DEA boys and other LEO's transporting perps but never an AM.

 

[FN FAL]

Most of the part 125 airplanes had Cockpit doors with blowout sections in case of a depressurization event to equalize the pressure in the cabin. In the case of the Dornier 328 the door was so weak that it was not uncommon for the first row passenger to kick the panel out by accident while trying to stretch out.

The Boeing doors were a little better but still had the resistance level of a trailer park girl on prom night.

Everybody knew that security was weak...

...As a side note. In 7 years of 121 flying prior to 9/11 I never once had an Air Marshall on my airplane, A few DEA boys and other LEO's transporting perps but never an AM.

I hear ya man. I hear ya. It was all fun and games till someone lost a wiener.

Now we just have to hope they don't ignore the warning signs untill a mushroom cloud over one of our cities will be the next "we are interupting our regular broadcasting to..."

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I hear ya man. I hear ya. It was all fun and games till someone lost a wiener.

Now we just have to hope they don't ignore the warning signs untill a mushroom cloud over one of our cities will be the next "we are interupting our regular broadcasting to..."

Now that is the scary stuff. Saw a post elsewhere about some radio show talking about that subject. Don't know if it was B.S. or what. If they have one it is for sure that they are trying to figure a way to deliver it.

How do you like your 320? I have lots of 310 time but never flew the 320.

Got to go, Have to fly the micro jet tomorrow.