9/11-Pilots let hijackers in?

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

I get apprehensive when someone refers to me as a "Frog" or "Kraut." Since these are in reference to a nationality I did not think Americans had any such slant because we are a group of different nationalities; but, of course, I am wrong. MeGook CheunChee is Korean meaning "Crazy American."

I wonder what people from the Middle East call us?

I'm sure they have names for us, but that's not my point. WE should set the example.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Yea, I guess you are right, PSA FLIGHT 1771 didn't hit the ground in one piece...because it flew past VMO in flight...making it a "far cry" from the 9/11 impacts. And because the flight crew was able to subdue the PILOT that brought hammers and a speargun onboard, they didn't get killed in the corporate attack on FedEx.

You can go back to sleep now, I am in error...there never was, nor will there have ever been, a reason to put secure cockpit doors on aircraft.

Becuase thanks to you, we now know for a fact that psychotic individuals commiting acts of "air rage" could never attack the command center of an air carrier aircraft and only Islam Jihad types crash planes into the ground.

Alright genius, where exactly did I say anything about not needing a secure cockpit door?

 

[FN FAL]

You really are an uninformed idiot, who has never set foot in a airliner except as a passenger.

That's funny. When I was getting walked around the RJ-85 in MSP during indoctrination (pre-9/11), the first thing I thought when I seen the cockpit doors, was that trailer trash had better closet doors on their laundry room.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

I'm sure they have names for us, but that's not my point. WE should set the example.

I think we should follow Rome's example when fighting the punic wars. They didn't have any problems with the Carthage people after the third war...

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

That's funny. When I was getting walked around the RJ-85 in MSP during indoctrination (pre-9/11), the first thing I thought when I seen the cockpit doors, was that trailer trash had better closet doors on their laundry room.

Hmmm... According to your previous posts, you are currently flying freight, working on your Bachelors Degree and then will get your ATP in a Citation or a 737. Interesting.

But if you are flying a rat jet then I do apologize. You are not uninformed, just an idiot.

Again I will ask the question about your flame of my post. Where exactly did I say anything about not needing a secure cockpit door?

 

[350DRIVER]

I believe many people are really confused as to how things really transpired including probably myself. However, I will say this.. I understand that some of the hijackers posed as pilots jumpseating. This is very interesting and plausible because early in 2001 I remember reading a security memo in our flight ops office warning of imposter pilots due to some AA uniforms and id's that were stolen, I believe in Rome. Does anyone else recall something like this?

None of the 911 hijackers "posed" as pilots according to the facts that are known to date. I do recall these uniforms being missing/stolen but these didn't do a thing on 911, all were in the back of the aircrafts on pushback.

3 5 0

 

[FN FAL]

But if you are flying a rat jet then I do apologize. You are not uninformed, just an idiot.

I never flew the rat jet as a line pilot. But I did enjoy the 500 bucks take home every two weeks for about three months.

It's my belief that those doors should have been secure and locked shut a long time ago. They were an "attractive nusiance" and they were exploited. It was only going to be a matter of time before this or something like this was going to happen.

As a passenger on many Northwest flights, before and after becoming a pilot, I could never understand why the cockpit doors were left open at all, ever. I understand that there was a regulation regarding blocking emergency exits, but I can hardly remember any civil airline crash where passengers ever had to exit the aircraft from the cockpit in an emergency. At least none where the pilots couldn't have opened the door when it was necessary.

We got caught with our pants down. They exploited the weakness that was available to them and now we have secure doors.

Now it sounds lilke they are trying to bypass the door and get through by the lavatory...as it states in this article in the Scotsman...

http://news.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=841042004

Hmmm... According to your previous posts, you are currently flying freight, working on your Bachelors Degree and then will get your ATP in a Citation or a 737. Interesting.

What's so interesting about that. Lots of people work on their Bachelors degrees, fly freight, get ATP's and buy "TYPES". If the sequence of events bothers you, you can send a donation to me via paypal and I will straighten out the chronology for you...I promise. Evidently I'm not fitting your cookie cutter mold of what your expectations are for being a "commercial pilot".

I haven't needed an ATP yet, because none of the jobs I have had yet has required them. Whether it will help me with a REAL airline job, or one with a fractional or a corporate operator... having an ATP will obviously be required up the road, but I think I am past the "ALL ATP's", bounce around in seminole phase.

I got over 1,700 multi piston in 135 operations as PIC. Several hundred hours in my own Cessna 320 Skyknight. 1,500 hours or better of turbine PIC in 135 operations. I am probably past 6,000 total flight hours and only those hours where I was getting dual for ratings are not PIC time. I plan on getting my ATP during a type ride...could be a Citation, could be a 737, or anything inbetween.

Depends on which will get me the furthest when I get done with school. I could spend 2,000 bucks at ALL ATPS to get spun up to speed in a Seminole by some nugget with a 1/5th the experience I got, or go to one of the sim places and spend three times as much and walk out with a real license in my pocket. I don't see the rush, considering the condition the industry is in and I still have better than a year before finishing my Bachelor degree.

There is a rumor that our DO is pushing on the people that decide such things to get us some of them there newly refubished ATR-42's...if that happens, I may not have to spend my own bucks to get the ATP in a type ride. Big freaking deal...I'm on my schedule. Not yours, not theirs. Even if we don't get the ATR's, the company will still pay me to get my ATP, just not enough to cover a type.

Any other questions?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I never flew the rat jet as a line pilot. But I did enjoy the 500 bucks take home every two weeks for about three months.

It's my belief that those doors should have been secure and locked shut a long time ago. They were an "attractive nusiance" and they were exploited. It was only going to be a matter of time before this or something like this was going to happen.

As a passenger on many Northwest flights, before and after becoming a pilot, I could never understand why the cockpit doors were left open at all, ever. I understand that there was a regulation regarding blocking emergency exits, but I can hardly remember any civil airline crash where passengers ever had to exit the aircraft from the cockpit in an emergency. At least none where the pilots couldn't have opened the door when it was necessary.

We got caught with our pants down. They exploited the weakness that was available to them and now we have secure doors.

Now it sounds lilke they are trying to bypass the door and get through by the lavatory...as it states in this article in the Scotsman...

http://news.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=841042004

Most of the part 125 airplanes had Cockpit doors with blowout sections in case of a depressurization event to equalize the pressure in the cabin. In the case of the Dornier 328 the door was so weak that it was not uncommon for the first row passenger to kick the panel out by accident while trying to stretch out.

The Boeing doors were a little better but still had the resistance level of a trailer park girl on prom night.

Everybody knew that security was weak but every time someone spoke up the flight crews got another enema performed while going through security while the cleaners, caterers, fuelers etc..still came through the unmonitered entrances with nothing but a pass card checked.

Pre 9/11 I was being hassled by a contract security guy about my multitool (Still legal then). I asked him if I could still keep my crash Axe in the cockpit or should I bring that back to him and cancel the flight.......his response....a blank stared "AXE!!!"

Bottom line is, the flight crews did what they were trained and required to do by the FAA, some did try to fight but really had no chance. The ball was really dropped long before the perps got on the airplanes.

EL-AL has been doing it right for 30 years. It's a shame that it took 9/11 to get the U.S. system in gear. Hopefully the programs in progress (FFDO) and the ones on the drawing board (missle defense systems) will be continued.

As a side note. In 7 years of 121 flying prior to 9/11 I never once had an Air Marshall on my airplane, A few DEA boys and other LEO's transporting perps but never an AM.

 

[FN FAL]

Most of the part 125 airplanes had Cockpit doors with blowout sections in case of a depressurization event to equalize the pressure in the cabin. In the case of the Dornier 328 the door was so weak that it was not uncommon for the first row passenger to kick the panel out by accident while trying to stretch out.

The Boeing doors were a little better but still had the resistance level of a trailer park girl on prom night.

Everybody knew that security was weak...

...As a side note. In 7 years of 121 flying prior to 9/11 I never once had an Air Marshall on my airplane, A few DEA boys and other LEO's transporting perps but never an AM.

I hear ya man. I hear ya. It was all fun and games till someone lost a wiener.

Now we just have to hope they don't ignore the warning signs untill a mushroom cloud over one of our cities will be the next "we are interupting our regular broadcasting to..."

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I hear ya man. I hear ya. It was all fun and games till someone lost a wiener.

Now we just have to hope they don't ignore the warning signs untill a mushroom cloud over one of our cities will be the next "we are interupting our regular broadcasting to..."

Now that is the scary stuff. Saw a post elsewhere about some radio show talking about that subject. Don't know if it was B.S. or what. If they have one it is for sure that they are trying to figure a way to deliver it.

How do you like your 320? I have lots of 310 time but never flew the 320.

Got to go, Have to fly the micro jet tomorrow.

 

[FN FAL]

Now that is the scary stuff. Saw a post elsewhere about some radio show talking about that subject. Don't know if it was B.S. or what. If they have one it is for sure that they are trying to figure a way to deliver it.

How do you like your 320? I have lots of 310 time but never flew the 320.

Got to go, Have to fly the micro jet tomorrow.

Yea, I just read an article that said they are worried about new cold fusion processes that gives off the required byproducts needed to build h-bombs. Sounds really scary.

The 320 is long gone by a few years ago...shared it with two other partners. It flew great. When I got my first 135 job, the initial checkride was in a vortice equiped 310 R model...felt like being right at home. Real similar...except our interior looked like it came out of 1950's pop-up camper.

 

[enigma]

FN FAL. It appears that you are unaware of the pre-September 11, FAA official strategy dictating how flight crews deal with a hijack. You express disbelief that the crews might have let the perps in, but that was the plan in place at the time.

To the person who inquired about the rumor that one of the hijackers was impersonating a pilot, and had somehow accessed the jumpseat; you have fallen victim to a legend. This was disproven almost immediately, yet the rumor persists. I suspect that it continues to exist because it helps the establishment continue their war against pilots. The TSA doesn't want us to have jumpseat privileges, and neither does management. You do the math.

regards,
enigma

 

[Pilot124]

the passengers had trouble trying to get into the cockpit on that day

Panel: United Flight 93 crashed without cockpit struggle.
AP

The wreckage of United Airlines flight 93 is seen in this September, 2001 photo. (File Photo)WASHINGTON - Passengers aboard United Airlines

Flight 93 fought back against the hijackers but never actually made it into the cockpit, the Sept. 11 commission concluded.

The assertion, included in the panel's dramatic summary of the harrowing flight, contradicts the firmly held belief by some victims' families that passengers breached the cockpit and fought with hijackers inside during their final moments.

In phone calls from the plane, four passengers said they and others planned to fight the hijackers after learning of the attacks on the World Trade Center in New York earlier that morning.

With the words "Let's roll," passengers rushed down the airliner's narrow aisle to try to overwhelm the hijackers.

Relying on the cockpit recorder and flight data, the commission said terrorist-pilot Ziad Jarrah violently rocked the jet's wings and told another hijacker to block the door. With the sounds of fighting outside the cockpit, Jarrah asked, "Is that it? Shall we finish it off?"

Another hijacker, who wasn't identified, replied, "No, not yet. When they all come, we finish it off."

Jarrah then began pitching the nose of the plane up and down to throw passengers off balance.

Seconds later, a passenger who wasn't identified yelled, "In the cockpit! If we don't, we die!" And 16 seconds afterward, another passenger yelled, "Roll it!" Investigators previously have said they believe passengers tried to use a food cart to break the cockpit door.

Jarrah said, "Allah is the greatest! Allah is the greatest!", and he asked his fellow hijacker, "Is that it? I mean, shall we put it down?"

The other hijacker answered, "Yes, put it in, and pull it down."

Roughly 90 seconds later, the jet rolled onto its back and crashed into a Pennsylvania field at more than 580 mph, killing everyone aboard.

AdvertisementThe commission concluded that the hijackers remained at the controls of the plane, "but must have judged that the passengers were only seconds from overcoming them." The commission said the hijackers' destination was Washington. It praised the courage of the passengers and said their struggle "saved the lives of countless others, and may have saved either the Capitol or the White House from destruction." The Associated Press reported last year that the government's theory about Flight 93 - described by FBI Director Robert Mueller to congressional investigators in closed testimony - also concluded that passengers grappled with terrorists but never actually got into the cockpit.

 

[FN FAL]

FN FAL. It appears that you are unaware of the pre-September 11, FAA official strategy dictating how flight crews deal with a hijack. You express disbelief that the crews might have let the perps in, but that was the plan in place at the time.

Enigma, you are either twisting my words or are not comprehending what I am saying. I never said the pilots let the perps in.

What I am saying is how ignorant it was to have open access to the flight deck, ever.

With your logic, it would be o.k. to walk bad neighborhoods with gold chains, a rolex and a wallet full of cash and then boo hoo when somebody knocked you down and took your money.

Terrorism existed in the world before 9/11, suicide bombings existed before 9/11, hatred against America was prevelant and even displayed in hollywood movies made 20 years years before 9/11 when Reagan was in office.

I never said anything about what the flight crew did or didn't do. You guys keep talking about what the POLICY that was in place before 9/11. It was flawed. Those flaws were pointed out with the PSA 1771 mass murder and the attempt on the FedEx flight. Air rage was becoming a problem and it was in the media on a weekly basis.

Policy change did not have to take the loss of the twin towers, damage to the Pentagon, nor the loss of 3,000 lives. All it took was for someone to recognize the danger that was obviously pointed out to us during the attacks on 9/11.

I have no clue what the flight crews did or didn't do. I'm just telling you that unsecure cabin doors were an invitation to this disaster. And here we are.

 

[enigma]

FN FAL, of course you're correct. I have no idea why I attributed that line of thinking to you. I went back and re-read that string, you didn't say that the pilots let the bad guys in. I must be losing it.

Sorry,
enigma

 

[FN FAL]

FN FAL, of course you're correct. I have no idea why I attributed that line of thinking to you. I went back and re-read that string, you didn't say that the pilots let the bad guys in. I must be losing it.

Sorry,
enigma

Hey no biggie enigma...like I was telling my wife last night...right, wrong or indifferent, it's just my belief that it was risky having access to cockpit and having such flimsy doors. I'm not a clairvoyant and certainly no genius...it was just my BELIEF.

I realize that with aviation and federal laws nobody does anything till something really big happens, like people dying. I realize and remember the cuba hijackings and how they just flew the darned planes to cuba, dropped off whoever it was that hijacked the plane. Then the passengers and crew got some free cigars and trip through the duty free shop or some autographed fatigues from Castro and on they went back to the states. I remember all of that crazy '70s show.

I'm NOT pointing a finger of blame at the airlines, the aircraft manufacturers, the FAA, the CIA, the Whitehouse, the Democrats, the Republicans...not nobody.

It's just my BELIEF that cockpits should have been defendable from the get go...(who can forget that pilots were armed once before? if that aint a clue that something should have been changed, I don't know).

So...I believe and you believe and everybody here has a belief, but one thing is for sure, with our system regarding mass transit in the air, it always takes something big happening before there is change. We all know that and I hardly think there is an argument there. How many times has the FAA been called the tombstone agency?

I will say this much...till there was some serious consideration regarding the threat of hostiles breaching a cockpit door, they would have never had been able to set a bar as to how that product would be defined.

For example, lets just say they made the doors strong enough to keep out a psycho air rager, but never considered the scenario where religious extremists numbering more than 4 would be ramming a beverage cart against it...we would still be suffering the same problem we have today.

Have a good weekend enigma!

 

[LXApilot]

Air Rage

There was more than one incident of air rage before 9/11 where unauthorized persons gained access to the cockpit:

July 23, 1999: Minutes after an All Nippon Airways jumbo jet took off from Tokyo's Haneda Airport, a 28-year-old Tokyo man pulled an 8-inch knife on a flight attendant. He forced his way into the cockpit, told the co-pilot to leave, stabbed Capt. Naoyuki Nagashima in the neck and shoulder, then took control of the aircraft. At one point the plane plunged to within 300 meters of the ground. The co-pilot and two ANA employees stormed the cockpit and overpowered the man. A non-uniformed pilot reportedly landed the plane safely, but Captain Nagashima bled to death. The suspect later told investigators he liked to play flight simulation games and wanted to fly a real plane.

May 14, 1999: A Senegalese man attacked the pilot and co-pilot of an Air France plane while en route to Dakar from Paris at 37,000 feet. After he was restrained by fellow passengers, an onboard doctor injected him with a tranquilizer. Soon after the injection, the passenger suffered a heart attack and died. One year earlier, an unruly passenger on a Malev Hungarian airliner suffered a similar fate. After he punched a pilot and tried to choke a flight attendant, he was restrained. A doctor injected him with a sedative. The autopsy revealed that his death was caused by a mixture of the tranquilizer and some other drug or alcohol.

August 2001 - A British Airways jet came "within seconds of disaster" over Africa after a passenger stormed into the cockpit and tried to seize the controls. The crew of the Boeing 747 wrestled with the male passenger, said to be a Kenyan national and "hysterical", as he tried to grab the joystick and controls.In the struggle the auto-pilot became disengaged and the jumbo was knocked off course, diving violently and plunging thousands of feet. The captain, William Hagan, 53 and from Glasgow, said that if the drama had lasted four or five seconds longer the jet would have flipped on its back and the co-pilot would not have been able to regain control. Jemima Khan, wife of the former Pakistani cricket captain Imran Khan, and his mother, Lady Annabel Goldsmith, widow of businessman Sir James, and other members of the family were on board; He said: "It was diving at a really weird angle going down to the left and basically very, very steep, shuddering violently. "This was a scene of an aeroplane about to crash, "I don't think there was a single person on the plane who didn't think we were going to crash. There were grown men screaming."


And the most telling of them all? A NPRM from the FAA that mysteriously vanished, and a copy of that NPRM for the Canadian Aviation Authority dated March 17, 2001 which states:
The final wording of the rule is as follows:

l. In respect of flights on aircraft registered in Canada, every air carrier shall establish procedures to ensure that the pilot-in-command is notified by a crew member when the actions or statements of a passenger on board an aircraft indicate that the passenger may present a risk to the safety of any person on board the aircraft.
2. (1) When the actions or statements of a passenger on board an aircraft registered in Canada may present a risk to the conduct of the flight, the air earner shall ensure that the door between the flight deck and the cabin is locked and guarded until the risk is past. (2) Subsection
(1) does not apply if (a) the door is not equipped with a locking device; or (b) there are overriding safety-of-flight considerations.
3. This Security Measure comes into force on March 17, 2001.

... cockpit door keys were everywhere back then; everyone had one. We had them laying all around the house, I used to have a 767 cockpit key on my key ring because they would unlock practicly anything, including the doors to Cessnas, Pipers, file cabinets, boat ignitions, etc. The FA's used to have cockpit door keys on little hooks in the galley behind the cabinet doors. Dont think they are there anymore... One last question; has it been proven that none of the highjacked flights were the work of one or more terrorists OMC <jumpseating> in the cockpit? Or is that just us listening to our "trusty" government when they say , 'oh no, that could never happen'.

 

[mar]

A late question for Enigma

The TSA doesn't want us to have jumpseat privileges, and neither does management.

No questions about the TSA.

But why do you think management doesn't want us to have jumpseats. Some operations rely on this "privilege".

 

[flyifrvfr]

Has anyone wondered where these 32 virgins come from promised to the faithful in the after life?

32 virgins are sacrificed [beheaded] as an annual ritual tribute to Allah. Historical from the times of the old testament. A practice honored by the Hittites, Babylonians and other primitive tribes. Human sacrifices were common among the early Israelites as well.

All the more reason to be a whore, that is if I were a woman. I wouldn't want a virgin, they are too much work.

 

[Dubya]

None of the 911 hijackers "posed" as pilots according to the facts that are known to date. I do recall these uniforms being missing/stolen but these didn't do a thing on 911, all were in the back of the aircrafts on pushback.

3 5 0

350...just curious where you found your facts. I was working with a retired Cactus captain who absolutely insisted to me that the cockpits were compromised by jumpseat occupants with uniforms and id's with weapons stashed in the cockpit by ground crew that were terrorist plants. He also said that a friend of his at UAL said that they were briefed that weapons were taped to the bottom of seats in most rows of more thank just the aircraft used in 9/11.

I listened and didn't contest his assertions, but I must say I was a bit skeptical based on what I have seen since. Just wondering if you had some specific source on this. Thanks.

W