8 hour flight time limit

[Eric]

Question:

You are scheduled for just under 8 hours in a day. You are delayed along the line and you know your last leg will put you over 8 hours. Are you legal to finish? (I'm warming you up with the easy one) I think the answer is yes.

How about:

You are scheduled for just under 8 hours, and on your last leg, you divert. Now, after you have waited out the weather, are you legal to fly to your original destination since the divert wasn't on your original schedule?

Let's hear it

 

[filejw]

The answer to both is yes as long as you don't go over your duty time.

 

[jehtplane]

Question:

You are scheduled for just under 8 hours in a day. You are delayed along the line and you know your last leg will put you over 8 hours. Are you legal to finish? (I'm warming you up with the easy one) I think the answer is yes.

How about:

You are scheduled for just under 8 hours, and on your last leg, you divert. Now, after you have waited out the weather, are you legal to fly to your original destination since the divert wasn't on your original schedule?

Let's hear it

Yes because it is a continuation of an original flight.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Question:

You are scheduled for just under 8 hours in a day. You are delayed along the line and you know your last leg will put you over 8 hours. Are you legal to finish? (I'm warming you up with the easy one) I think the answer is yes.

How about:

You are scheduled for just under 8 hours, and on your last leg, you divert. Now, after you have waited out the weather, are you legal to fly to your original destination since the divert wasn't on your original schedule?

Let's hear it

First case yes, second case, if you land at the diverted airport and have over 8 hours, you are done for 16 hours (or twice your flight time).

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

This from the pov of scheduled -121, from what I remember at TSA ground school in 2001.

The old way of interpreting the regs was legal to start a trip, legal to finish. That changed to a leg-by-leg evaluation at some point. The FAA re-interpreted their own regs and they were sued by the ATA which claimed that the FAA re-interpretation amounted to creating new regs. The FAA won, which is why the scheduled airlines now use the leg-by-leg method.

If your trip/day is scheduled under 8 hours, you're legal to start. Then, u have to evaluate each leg separately.

If, on your last leg, it should take you 45" of block time, and you block out at 7+00, u r OK as you would block in at 7+45. However, if you then took a 20" taxi delay, you CAN'T takeoff, as that would put you at 8+05 at the end of that leg. U have to taxi back to the gate and the airline will get a new crew to fly that leg.

Now, if you did block out at 7+00 for the 45" block time leg, and you took off normally at 7+05, and then, enroute, you took a 30" holding delay, for example because of ATC requirements, you would now block in at 8+15. In this case, U would be perfectly legal, because the delay was IN FLIGHT during your last leg and out of your control.

So, in both cases the answer would be no, you can't block out knowing u will be over your 8+00 when you block in.

This is what we were taught at TSA, which is a scheduled, 121 carrier. I now work at a 121 supplemental carrier, and they fly legal to start-legal to finish. They are allowed to do this either because it is supplemental, or our local FSDO allows it.

If it's only because our FSDO allows it, that is bad, because if something were to happen, then FAA HQ could easily violate the pilots and our co. by saying the FSDO was interpreting the regs incorrectly, and we would be screwed. This has happened recently with the charter/broker situation and what different entities are required/allowed to do with regards to flying charter PAX aircraft.

cliff
YIP

Note: I don't use the 121 regs with the aircraft I operate, which is why I don't understand the 121 vs. 121 supplemental differences situation so well.

 

[mckpickle]

Completely untrue. We go over 8 all the time. Legal to start legal to finish. Heck with the delays in EWR this year we've had guy doing 10 hour flight timed days.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Completely untrue. We go over 8 all the time. Legal to start legal to finish. Heck with the delays in EWR this year we've had guy doing 10 hour flight timed days.

Not agreeing or disagreeing with your statement, just qualifying. Just because something is being done over and over, does not make it legal. I can point to a couple of things my current employer had been "doing" until the FAA slapped their hand and said, I don't think so.

 

[Erlanger]

Here's another twist to that question. Before coming to work, your trip is scheduled for 7:58 minutes of flying. Duty day is not a factor here, lets say. When you show up and check in, it now shows a flight time day of 8:10. Dispatch has amended the times. Are you legal to start and finish that trip if it will take you over the 8 hours?

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Here's another twist to that question. Before coming to work, your trip is scheduled for 7:58 minutes of flying. Duty day is not a factor here, lets say. When you show up and check in, it now shows a flight time day of 8:10. Dispatch has amended the times. Are you legal to start and finish that trip if it will take you over the 8 hours?

Yes, I believe it was Delta that had the FAA get an official interp on this one. The flight was originally scheduled for under eight hours. The time on the flight plan is irrelevant here.

 

[dogtown]

First case yes, second case, if you land at the diverted airport and have over 8 hours, you are done for 16 hours (or twice your flight time).

Wrong. You need only to look back and see your 8 hrs rest in the last 24hrs (unless you were on reduced rest). You could be scheduled for 7:50 flying and on you last out and back, divert then fly to your origional scheduled destination and land at 12 hrs block time; as long as you can look back and see 8hrs in last 24 (and you will be able to do this at your estimated duty off time back at base) you are legal to go. In theory if you you can fly 16hrs minus the time it takes you turn the plane and duty off...this is not to say it is safe or smart to due so.

 

[dogtown]

Here's another twist to that question. Before coming to work, your trip is scheduled for 7:58 minutes of flying. Duty day is not a factor here, lets say. When you show up and check in, it now shows a flight time day of 8:10. Dispatch has amended the times. Are you legal to start and finish that trip if it will take you over the 8 hours?

No, not legal to start so you can't do it.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Dog
Sorry, but you are wrong on both counts. If you do a search on here, you will, find the letter that the FAA has written addressing the over 8 hour flight plan issue.

Letter to Tom Kehmeier, from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division (concluding that once the pilot has flown over 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours, section 121.503(b) rest is triggered and the pilot in the scenario presented who exceeded the 8 hour limit by 8 minutes at the time he landed at CVG, an intermediate leg, must be given 16 hours of rest before he may continue on with the next flight)[2001-2] (copy enclosed). In a situation where a pilot exceeds 8 hours after take off, because of a circumstance beyond the certificate holder's control that develops during that flight leg, such as adverse weather, the certificate holder, as a matter of enforcement policy, would not be deemed to be in violation of the section 121.503(b) rest requirement. Upon landing, however, the pilot must be given 16 hours of rest before he may continue with another flight.

That is from an FAA interp on flying over eight hours. If you land with over eight hours on you, you are done.

 

[dogtown]

Dog
Sorry, but you are wrong on both counts. If you do a search on here, you will, find the letter that the FAA has written addressing the over 8 hour flight plan issue.



That is from an FAA interp on flying over eight hours. If you land with over eight hours on you, you are done.

Not true.
I don't know what you are Quoting, but lets say you are schuduled for 7:30 for the day and the last part of that is a ORD-PHL-ORD worth 5hrs. On your way to PHL you hold several times and eventually divert at MDT (harrisburg). Let's say that when you land at MDT you have flown 8hrs 1min. While you have flown more than 8hrs, you where origanaly scheduled less than 8 and only diverted due to circumstances beyond your controle. At this point you are sill legal to depart MDT to PHL (legal to start, legal to finish) After you land and board up you are legal to fly back to ORD as long as when you depart PHL your estimated flight time will not put you back in (& duty off) in ORD past your 16hrs duty day (8hr rest lookback in 24hr perlod). As long as you will do this you are legal, (legal does not mean safe) to fly past 8hrs, could be 12, 14...hrs in one day without rest.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Ahh, you know what Dog, you are right, I was looking at supplemental rules (the rules I fly under).

My bad.

 

[dogtown]

Ahh, you know what Dog, you are right, I was looking at supplemental rules (the rules I fly under).

My bad.

Cool. And now that that is settled I am going to bed.

 

[Prop2Jet]

Your schedule was changed, therefore the legal to start is no longer valid for the 8:10 update your schedule.

 

[Prop2Jet]

"Upon landing, however, the pilot must be given 16 hours of rest before he may continue with another flight. " What is this? Try if you flew over 8 hours but under 9 you need only 9 on a reduced rest period. Or 10 hours of rest on a regular rest period.

 

[n757st]

Yeah, I was always under the impression that you could fly 14 hours in a day if needed as long as your original schedule was for less then 8. As soon as you change something on your schedule, say you are running late all day and have already flown 7 hours, scheduling and changes your RON with the next leg blocked at 1 hour 5 mins... you are not legal to go because the reroute would take you above 8 hours flying.

 

[sckakids]

First, diaptch does not change times...the release and weather automatically adjust for what the computer thinks it will take to fly, so this still falls under legal to start legal to finish. The thinking that you have to look at leg by leg is untrue, although some airlines do subscribe to this, but this is currently not the interpretation of the FAA. Legal to start the trip, legal to finish, unless it is changed from original schedule, meaning you are rescheduled to a completely different rt, or sets of flights and then scheduling has to reestablish the legal to start, legal to finish wiht actual time already flown for the day and what is scheduled for remainder of the day. Diversions are also legal to start, legal to finish, as long as you go to original destiantion or dept airport, anywhere else is a reassignment and has to be checked for legal to start.

Ok Im winded

 

[DrewBlows]

The question was answered in post #2. This is an exercise in futility.