78 year old captain flying Jenni Rivera's plane

[pilotyip]

....when he was awake, that is....

Hey in night freight if you don't rest you can be in big trouble.

Reminds me of my first trip after IOE, 1978 TransAmerican L-188 F/O coming out of the Emery sort at KDAY at 0200. We level off and the CA looks at me and says, "Why don't you kick back and get some rest” I answered "Oh no sir, my job to be fully alert to the safety of flight at all times" (or something stupid like that). He looks at his feet and shakes his head and says "I hate you new guys, you know I am gunna catch some rest on the next leg, and I won't rest well if I think you might not be alert" "If I am not rested I am a grumpy son-of -a-bitch, and you don't want to be around me when I am grumpy" "Now about you get some rest” I pretended to rest, I was too excited about being an airline pilot. That did not last long, the not resting part, I loved being an airline pilot. There is no way anyone who lives on their days off on a 7AM to 11PM wake cycle with their family, can now pick up three night of 11PM to 7AM flying and not be exhausted.

The real danger is mirco napping and missing the critical call while on the approach, as opposed to controlled napping at cruise. In the late 80's the NTSB did a study of sleep in the cockpit, looking at instances of “Micro Napping”. This where you have no control over falling asleep and blacking out due to being fatigued. What they found was at int'l carriers where controlled napping was allowed in cruise, there were no instances of Micro napping from start of descent to the gate. On US Air carriers there was 147 cases of Micro Napping from the start of descent to the gate. Including 4 cases of micro napping where both pilots dropped off at the same time. The danger is not missing the call because of controlled napping, but missing the call because of uncontrolled napping. BTW the FAA rejected the NTSB recommendation of setting napping policy, because it was un-American to sleep on the job.

 

[imacdog]

I think we all know who ends up taking more unplanned naps in the cockpit.

 

[CALRepublic]

I flew with a 78 year old FE on the Electra. He was a sharp guy and really knew that airplane. Much more knowledgeable than his far younger counterparts.

I've flown with a few seventy-something's, a couple of stories

- taxiing to the runway, they told us to hold short of the runway for landing traffic, he kept on going, he wasn't going to stop. I jumped on the brakes, the passengers coffee went flying. He said "he couldn't see the hold-short line".

-a few months a later ( different guy) we busted altitude out of Santa Monica. This guy likes to hand fly, he won't engage the A/P below 15000ft. we filled an ASAP report, my first ASAP in 7 years. We had a chat in the FBO

By the way, these two guys are not in their 70s, they're in their late 60s

 

[Mud Eagle]

-a few months a later ( different guy) we busted altitude out of Santa Monica. This guy likes to hand fly, he won't engage the A/P below 15000ft. we filled an ASAP report, my first ASAP in 7 years. We had a chat in the FBO

What does this have to do with age? I have seen pilots at all ages, with all levels of experience and rating, bust ATC-assigned altitudes.

 

[pilotyip]

I've flown with a few seventy-something's, a couple of stories

- taxiing to the runway, they told us to hold short of the runway for landing traffic, he kept on going, he wasn't going to stop. I jumped on the brakes, the passengers coffee went flying. He said "he couldn't see the hold-short line".

-a few months a later ( different guy) we busted altitude out of Santa Monica. This guy likes to hand fly, he won't engage the A/P below 15000ft. we filled an ASAP report, my first ASAP in 7 years. We had a chat in the FBO

By the way, these two guys are not in their 70s, they're in their late 60s

and just never happens to anyone under the age of 50 right? Like engaging the autopilot on a CRJ in the VS mode, resulting in a dual flame out.

I think we all know who ends up taking more unplanned naps in the cockpit.

Sure we do, the NTSB proved it, those taking uncontrolled naps are the one who do not take controlled naps.

 

[rettofly]

I once took a 12 minute nap in twin turboprop, in IMC with no autopilot. I knew it was 12 minutes because I did the math on distance changed vs. ground speed during the time it took to blink my eyes.

Did I mention it was oh dark thirty on a repo leg, about 11 hours into a single pilot freight charter? I was only 56 at the time, but I told Dispatch that I was too old to do any more single pilot trips that had any chance of ending after midnight.

Controlled power naps are a must on the backside of the circadian cycle. Five minutes on oxygen during the descent helps a lot if it's available. This also helps to demonstrate "compliance" with the high altitude oxygen use regulation.

 

[jonjuan]

Hey in night freight if you don't rest you can be in big trouble.

Planned sleeping is on thing. Nodding off 10 mins after takeoff because you're old is another thing. My 80 yo grand-dad did the same thing while driving his caddy down the freeway.

 

[cldsfr79]

cldsfr79,

What an incredibly irresponsible, unprofessional and stupid post. You have no idea why that plane crashed, but you need to take a shot at older pilots because that fits your agenda.

RIP

X-rated, welcome to flightinfo.com. The land of speculation and rumor. Glad you can join us. Your post are always superior, accurate, knowledgeable, and unbiased to your positions.

1. I just posted an article.
2. There is always speculation in a preliminary cause until all avenues are exhausted, which includes pilot error.
3. I just reiterated what an executive at a company said about a 78 year old pilot.
4. I added that it could be mechanical failure: There are two main reasons why you plunge straight down from 28,000 feet at over 600 knots. 1. Flight control failure in which the 78 year old pilot was using is vast skills and knowledge to save the day, but wasn't able to overcome the catastrophic failure. or 2. someone slumped against the controls

Bad taste in my post? Yes. But I'm sure you also don't watch Fox News, CNN or read a newspaper, where opinion is added.

Post fits my agenda of talking about age? Sure. I honestly like seeing the argument young vs old. The usual argument: Young guys are inexperienced, inept, impatient, and entitled. "Retired" pilots are skillful, sharp, mentally fit and have completely healthy bodies unlike any other elderly person their age. Retired pilots are said to defy the aging process as noted by their posts.

Just to let X-rated pilot know:
80% off all accidents are caused by human error. But I'm sure when it comes to elderly pilots, it's always the 20%, which is mechanical error, that leads to the accident.
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/10nall.pdf

 

[Pervis]

Remind me again how old the crew was on the last fatal airline crash in the US.

 

[barnyard]

Remind me again how old the crew was on the last jet crash in the US.

 

[Club ORD FO]

3. I just reiterated what an executive at a company said about a 78 year old pilot.

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/10nall.pdf

Why reiterate garbage?

 

[X-rated]

Bad taste in my post? Yes. But I'm sure you also don't watch Fox News, CNN or read a newspaper, where opinion is added.

cldsfr79,

The fact that you now realize the post was in poor taste is good enough for me, but please don't try to rationalize it as a legitimate opinion. You're smarter than that, and you're supposed to be a professional pilot not a network propaganda machine. My hope is that when something goes wrong in your airplane, you don't just start pulling engines into cutoff before you know what the problem is. But, that's exactly what you did here. React first, figure out what happened later... "Well, most of the time it's an engine failure, and the engine on the left has more time on it than the one on the right, so why not just pull that one into cutoff and see if that fixes our problem".

People are dead, and you trampled on their reputations with absolutely no evidence. We all roll our eyes at the talking heads who either don't know any better, or worse, try to sensationalize a tragedy to boost ratings or promote their personal agendas. You're a highly trained professional pilot, and you know better. I would hope, if the the situation was reversed, other pilots would treat your family with quite a bit more respect.

 

[gret]

...views about the age of pilots, union discussions, etc...need to take a break today and maybe another couple of days...

 

[doh]

Should there be extra medical examination of older pilots? What age? What exams? Hearing would be one I would think. I'm not flaming, but 78?? Yip, does that not seem a little old to you?

 

[pilotyip]

Should there be extra medical examination of older pilots? What age? What exams? Hearing would be one I would think. I'm not flaming, but 78?? Yip, does that not seem a little old to you?

What did you say? Like I said I flew with a 78 year FE, he had no problem, The only way I knew he was 78 is when I looked at the seniority list and saw his birth date of 1918. I fly with a number of pilots on the war birds all in their mid 70's. They do a fine job