737 PFT: Set Me Straight

[mar]

A brilliant post

You know what 8N (may I call you 8N?), I think you and I could actually be friends.

PFT may, in fact, be the only topic we agree on.

Alas, there is one point I take issue with. You wrote: "...the reason that I am not working at a major is that I wasn't smart enough to get a 4 year degree until I was almost 40)."

I'm not very smart either but I actually had finished a four year degree in four and a half years when I was 22 (12 years ago)--and I don't work at any stinkin' major.

As a matter of fact, my job more closely resembles trash collector.

My company literally hauls the garbage out of the Alpine oil field on the North Slope.

For this I spent four years in college?

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. Physicians

Doctors pay for training. I don't care how you think about it, they pay for training. First in school and then interning. They may not pay to intern but for what they get paid and what is required, they are paying.

C'mon, Pub, that isn't accurate, and you know it. Let's try this comparison to pilots.

All pilots pay, in some way, for their initial training. I did. I'd take several flights with my instructor who owned his airplane, and write him a check. I would repeat the process. Eventually, I earned my Private, Commercial, Instrument and CFI-I with him. I did the same thing with my multi instructor, earning my multi and MEI. I had a friend help me with my CFI, but wrote checks for the airplane time. Others (or their parents) wrote the $45K check to, e.g., FSI or Comair. The result was the same at the end; we all had our initial quals as professional pilots. Our quals are recognized everywhere.

Then, we (hopefully) get jobs. We are hired and go to work. Every job requires some kind of training, but we are receiving wages while receiving the training. Except for P-F-T'ers, who coughed up at least part of their training cost as a condition of hire by their specific companies.

If someone wants to be a doctor, he/she goes to college for an undergrad degree. That is paid for by the person or for the person. Then, medical school. That, too, is paid for by the person or for the person. Probably by big loans. The person graduates from medical school with an M.D. degree. The M.D. is recognized anywhere.

Then, more than likely, the new doctor gets a job. Probably an internship with a hospital or medical center. The person is working, but it is a training position. The person is collecting a paycheck while he/she is learning. The new doctor did not remit monies to the hospital or medical center as a condition of hire or to receive training. Maybe he/she is paying through the nose for the hard work he/she contributes, but that's another matter. So, doctors do not P-F-T.

I do agree with you, Pub, to a point, that airlines want experienced people. Aside from insurance, that's why they establish minimum quals. But, as Enigma, above, noted, the experienced pilots airlines hire still must receive company training, just as everyone who starts any kind of new job in any industry receives. The distinction is the government mandates that new-hire pilots receive the training. A further distinction between airlines and other industries is companies outside of P-F-T aviation companies provide that training at their expense. Once again, I've never heard of any industry except for P-F-T (or pay-for-job) aviation companies that demands that new-hires pay for their training.

Is the horse dead, yet?

 

[46Driver]

Supply and Demand. What one person sees as "Beneath their Principles", another sees as "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome." What one person sees as "circumventing the market" another sees as "leveling the playing field" (as a helo bubba, I know all too well about "qualifications") Sounds like you want Utopia - the American free market is the last place you are going to find it.
There is a story about the plains of Africa: an antelope has to run to avoid being eaten, a lion has to run to eat. The moral of the story is that when the sun comes up, you better be running.... Same applies to the business world; if you are not going to hustle for a job, someone hungrier is going to take it. People just don't see things the same way - and this thread is evidence of it. And no, I did not PFT but I see nothing to get emotional about - its Supply and Demand.

 

[Timebuilder]

If we could live our lives with the practical detachment of a "Vulcan", we would simply see the act of purchasing employment to be "illogical".

Since we aren't wired that way, many of us bristle at the idea that pilots are willing to demonstrate to a world of aviation management that they will do anything, including prostituting themselves and lowering our profession, in order to hit the ground running and avoid being eaten. This helps to reinforce the idea that only the upper echelon of pilots can expect to earn a good living.

Species other than Antelope have learned to stand together and avoid running. This intimidates the lion, and he turns to look for easier prey.

The anit-PFT group attempts to reason with those who are considering that route, and dissuade them from what is seen as bad for themselves and our industry. Most are not, as previously suggested, unable to afford the money for PFT, and are not currently flying the pattern in a 172. Those who explained the reasons I should avoid PFT had the money, just like I did. Just like I do, they make their living flying people and things all over the place.

I'm not angry that some people moved ahead more quickly because they PFT'd. But if I was their peer, I would be.

 

[publisher]

paying

OK Bobby, I will give you that they are not paying. For what they are making though, they mise well be. Where else do you get to work 36 hour shifts with some free overtime on top of that.

As to your point about the training when you switch, that is a carry over from the past and sort of rediculous. flight attendant training is a perfect example. WHy one way of doing things is not adopted across the industry is beyond me.

There are a lot of things in this industry that do not make sense.

 

[bobbysamd]

The horse is alive and living

OK Bobby, I will give you that they are not paying. For what they are making though, they mise well be. Where else do you get to work 36 hour shifts with some free overtime on top of that.

Agreed. See my point above about pay-through-the-nose. There are plenty of other industries and professions (such as radio, right, Timebuilder?) where people pay through the nose for years to build up quals and experience.

As to your point about the training when you switch, that is a carry over from the past and sort of rediculous. flight attendant training is a perfect example. WHy one way of doing things is not adopted across the industry is beyond me.

I agree, somewhat. However, as we have seen from this thread and similar threads, pilots, along with doctors and lawyers, have differing opinions on how things should be done.

Case in point: I knew an L-188 Electra FE years ago. He flew Electras for Zantop and for another freight hauler. I remember how he told us stories about the flap retraction procedure. I don't remember the details - it's been fourteen years - but the long and short of it was each company retracted takeoff flaps at different points of the after-takeoff checklist. So, there's the case for initial training.

While we're on this subject, I'd bet that Southwest retracts takeoff flaps on its 737s at a different point than jetBlue or Frontier on their 737s.

It would be nice if these differences in procedures could be reconciled. I doubt that it will ever happen.