737 Crash Near Athens

[habubuaza]

Well, the "3" have been completed. No words of survivors and a very bad day for Aviation. My prayers are with the victims and the families.



http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1192166,00.html

 

[mzaharis]

Wierd case. Sounds like a cabin depressurization. Wonder why oxygen didn't work, or the pilots weren't able to use it. Scary that people had time to text message with messages like "Pilot turning blue".

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/08/14/greece.crash/index.html

 

[FN FAL]

Ask the people in the chasm what they think about automation in the cockpit.

 

[Spooky 1]

Ask the people in the chasm what they think about automation in the cockpit.

Can you expand on this staement? Not sure what automation has to do with this accident at this point at least.

 

[FN FAL]

Can you expand on this staement? Not sure what automation has to do with this accident at this point at least.

After 9/11, there was a great article on "secure digital data uplink". It would allow ground controllers the ability to take control over a stricken airliner from a secure location on the ground. Who would be the controllers? I don't know, but the techology exists to implement secure digital data uplink, it would have saved thousands of lives on 9/11, it would have saved lives here as well.

 

[mattpilot]

In that case i guess we as pilots should just stay home and let the computer do its job. Kinda like those automated subway trains.

 

[FN FAL]

In that case i guess we as pilots should just stay home and let the computer do its job. Kinda like those automated subway trains.

Secure digital data uplink doesn't replace pilots or jobs...

 

[Spooky 1]

After 9/11, there was a great article on "secure digital data uplink". It would allow ground controllers the ability to take control over a stricken airliner from a secure location on the ground. Who would be the controllers? I don't know, but the techology exists to implement secure digital data uplink, it would have saved thousands of lives on 9/11, it would have saved lives here as well.

Okay I see where you are coming from. I supposed the technology is possibel and might in fact be there, but I am not sure this would have changed the outcome of 911 as I believe the hijackers were in control of the aircraft right up to impact. In the case of the UAL in PA, I still don't think the outcome would have been any different.

As for this B737 accident, one can only speculate as to the cause and other factors that were to blame. Subtle decompressions are extremely rare and even in the oldest versions of the B737 there are plenty of warning systems to make the crew aware of the situation. On the other hand if one were to ignore all of these signals, then that is beyond comprehension and one could only speculate as to the reasons.

 

[EagleRJ]

After 9/11, there was a great article on "secure digital data uplink". It would allow ground controllers the ability to take control over a stricken airliner from a secure location on the ground. Who would be the controllers? I don't know, but the techology exists to implement secure digital data uplink, it would have saved thousands of lives on 9/11, it would have saved lives here as well.

So could you MEL the pilots if they were sick or on strike?

Would this let me work from home? I already have a joystick for my computer!

Re: saving lives on 9/11. You could also argue that instead of crashing four aircraft, this would let terrorists hack the system and crash hundreds instead. There's no such thing as a secure data link, and anything that removes pilots from the top of the chain of authority in the cockpit is a bad idea.

 

[EagleRJ]

Something strange about this accident is the fact that the tail section survived intact.

That implies something less than a high-speed, high-angle impact after the aircraft either ran out of fuel or went out of control with no one flying. It suggests a slower speed at the time of impact, in more level flight.
If that's the case, why didn't the aircraft spend enough time below 15,000' or so for the pilots to regain consciousness and regain control?

Something's strange here....

 

[FN FAL]

So could you MEL the pilots if they were sick or on strike?

Would this let me work from home? I already have a joystick for my computer!

Re: saving lives on 9/11. You could also argue that instead of crashing four aircraft, this would let terrorists hack the system and crash hundreds instead. There's no such thing as a secure data link, and anything that removes pilots from the top of the chain of authority in the cockpit is a bad idea.

Secure digital data uplink would not usurp the pilot's authority if they are incapacitated.

And to address your comment on hacking? Why bother with airliners, why not just simply hack into DOD and launch the missiles?

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Something strange about this accident is the fact that the tail section survived intact.

That implies something less than a high-speed, high-angle impact after the aircraft either ran out of fuel or went out of control with no one flying. It suggests a slower speed at the time of impact, in more level flight.
If that's the case, why didn't the aircraft spend enough time below 15,000' or so for the pilots to regain consciousness and regain control?

Something's strange here....

I agree something isn't right here. How would the passengers have seen the pilot turn blue? Was the PIC prancing up and down the aisle in the midst of hypoxic euphoria? I sort of doubt it.

There are plenty of ways to ventilate a 737 at low altitude. A slow decompression would have to involve a multitude of factors... The chances of them all coming together seem astronomical.

Very wierd.

 

[air_chompers]

Secure digital data uplink would not usurp the pilot's authority if they are incapacitated.

And to address your comment on hacking? Why bother with airliners, why not just simply hack into DOD and launch the missiles?

Cuz' computers dont control ze missiles, Everything is manual, and It would be hard as heck to change zat.

 

[AA717driver]

I think we may have a common link to most other airline disasters here. The news report referenced "the pilot". Pilot incapacitation is a huge problem on those multitudes of single pilot airliners. This is obviously an unsafe situation.

We need to write our congressmen and demand a requirement for more than one pilot on airlines...TC

 

[mattpilot]

I think we may have a common link to most other airline disasters here. The news report referenced "the pilot". Pilot incapacitation is a huge problem on those multitudes of single pilot airliners. This is obviously an unsafe situation.

We need to write our congressmen and demand a requirement for more than one pilot on airlines...TC

Do those so called "co-pilots-who-really-aren't-pilots" have to be typed under your proposed system?

 

[SIG600]

After 9/11, there was a great article on "secure digital data uplink". It would allow ground controllers the ability to take control over a stricken airliner from a secure location on the ground. Who would be the controllers? I don't know, but the techology exists to implement secure digital data uplink, it would have saved thousands of lives on 9/11, it would have saved lives here as well.

"Preflight item number one... pull circuit breakers to digital over ride thingie... Check"

 

[SIG600]

Secure digital data uplink would not usurp the pilot's authority if they are incapacitated.

And to address your comment on hacking? Why bother with airliners, why not just simply hack into DOD and launch the missiles?

DOD computers get attacked every day... and it dosen't exactly work that way. You can't launch a Tomahawk from a CG from your living room...

 

[9GClub]

I agree something isn't right here. How would the passengers have seen the pilot turn blue? Was the PIC prancing up and down the aisle in the midst of hypoxic euphoria? I sort of doubt it.

There are plenty of ways to ventilate a 737 at low altitude. A slow decompression would have to involve a multitude of factors... The chances of them all coming together seem astronomical.

Very wierd.

At least one source suggested that the Greek Vipers only saw one pilot in the cockpit, which implies that the other one may have indeed been prancing in the aisle.....

It also seems like a few technically apt (or at least curious) passengers-- if they weren't incapacitated-- would have checked out the cockpit to see what was up. If I was conscious I'd at least try to save the day with a glorious last-ditch 1+ G CFIT-avoidance maneuver.......

 

[Dangerkitty]

If I was conscious I'd at least try to save the day with a glorious last-ditch 1+ G CFIT-avoidance maneuver.......

After your 757 T/O comment that caused so much ridicule I thought that you wouldn't embarrass yourself by making it again. Yet I am wrong.

Do you not realize that you are pulling 1G right now as you sit at your computer?

 

[TexPilot]

Danger, if your going to get technical about it.... did he not say "1+" G?

Tex

 

[9GClub]

After your 757 T/O comment that caused so much ridicule I thought that you wouldn't embarrass yourself by making it again. Yet I am wrong.

Do you not realize that you are pulling 1G right now as you sit at your computer?

Hahaa. I thought I had sufficiently explained that already, but since some people weren't paying attention.....

A pullout of more than one G implies 1+ G's. If it was 2 G's, which it wasn't, I would have said 2 G's. Sadly, on that particular day I left my accelerometer at home.... otherwise I could have given you a more accurate figure, which you would have disputed.

No, I don't actually have an accelerometer.

I referenced the 1+ G thing AGAIN to get a rise out of you guys, and it worked. Imagine that.

Incidentally, I am currently pulling more than one G (1+ G's you might say) in my chair 'cause I'm LMAO.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Something strange about this accident is the fact that the tail section survived intact.

That implies something less than a high-speed, high-angle impact after the aircraft either ran out of fuel or went out of control with no one flying. It suggests a slower speed at the time of impact, in more level flight.
If that's the case, why didn't the aircraft spend enough time below 15,000' or so for the pilots to regain consciousness and regain control?

Something's strange here....

It is strange. Maybe a 737NG pilot could comment on the autopilot VNAV function. If it is engaged after takeoff, will it initiate the VNAV descent only after pilot input to the FCP, or will it simply fly the VNAV altitudes in the FMS? If the latter is possible, then the airplane simply desceded at TOD, ended up holding at the last waypoint in the FMS, and ran out of fuel.

The events leading up to this probably started in the climb phase, and the pilots were not alive after extended flight at altitude. Not sure about 2 people sighted by F-16's in the cockpit. Were they F/A's using portable Oxygen?

Dreadful thing if that were the case...

 

[Kream926]

if it were a decompres., wouldnt the windows be fogged like in payne stewarts case?

 

[Diesel]

They are reporting that the FO was slumped over the column with his 02 mask.

They are also reporting the captain was not in the cockpit visual from the fighter jets.

Also they said early on that an SMS had been sent from a pax stating the captain was passed out and turning blue.

Of course it's the BBC so what can you expect.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Hahaa. I thought I had sufficiently explained that already, but since some people weren't paying attention.....

You don't have to explain anything to me junior. I have been flying aircraft quite long enough to know that I don't need explaining from the likes of you.

A pullout of more than one G implies 1+ G's. If it was 2 G's, which it wasn't, I would have said 2 G's. Sadly, on that particular day I left my accelerometer at home.... otherwise I could have given you a more accurate figure, which you would have disputed.

How do you know it was between 1G but less than 2G's? By your own admission you left your accelerometer at home. Which now you admit to not having.

We are always at 1G unless we are weightless, pushing negative G's, or actually pulling more G's such as doing steep turns or aerobatics.

I referenced the 1+ G thing AGAIN to get a rise out of you guys, and it worked. Imagine that.

You didn't get a rise out of me. Quite the opposite. Posting the crap that you just posted just makes you out to look like a 40 hour student pilot tool. Oh wait, you are a 40 hour student pilot tool.

Incidentally, I am currently pulling more than one G (1+ G's you might say) in my chair 'cause I'm LMAO.

Enjoy the laugh. (It doesn't make you pull more G's though) After reading more comments from you it is apparent that you have no clue what you are talking about. Time to get some more dual in your Cessna there junior.

 

[Donsa320]

At least one source suggested that the Greek Vipers only saw one pilot in the cockpit, which implies that the other one may have indeed been prancing in the aisle.....

It also seems like a few technically apt (or at least curious) passengers-- if they weren't incapacitated-- would have checked out the cockpit to see what was up. If I was conscious I'd at least try to save the day with a glorious last-ditch 1+ G CFIT-avoidance maneuver.......

Perhaps the passengers could not get into the cockpit for the same reason the Captain could not if the F/O was incapacitated....the fortified cockpit door that cannot be unlocked from the cabin. Keeps hijackers out OK though! ARG!

~DC

 

[KigAir]

Here's another news story with talk of charred bodies. If the plane ran out of fuel would there still be fire?

http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=1075856

 

[Dangerkitty]

More news about the accident from the report linked above:

"Greek media speculated a toxic gas from possible faulty air-conditioning could have incapacitated the two pilots before they knew they were in danger."

Great! Now we have the media speculating about "toxic gases" from faulty airconditioning. I bet the next educated statement that they are going to make is that freon got into the packs.

Dumbasses.

 

[ackattacker]

More news about the accident from the report linked above:

"Greek media speculated a toxic gas from possible faulty air-conditioning could have incapacitated the two pilots before they knew they were in danger."

Great! Now we have the media speculating about "toxic gases" from faulty airconditioning. I bet the next educated statement that they are going to make is that freon got into the packs.

Dumbasses.

Actually, I think this is the scenario that makes the most sense. (not freon of course, but air contamination). It is certainly possible to get contaminated bleed air.

Passengers were saying it was "freezing". Which implies that the automatic temperature control was having problems, or perhaps that both packs were inop(?)

Maybe suspected air conditioning smoke in the cockpit followed by deactivating the packs. This depressurizes the plane slowly, everybody goes on oxygen, and it gets cold as hell. The captain decides to go take a walk around, and collapses in the cabin, and the copilot passes out from the burning circuit boards or whatever he inhaled... The airplanes flies in level flight into rising mountainous terrain and that's why the tail survives. The cockpit door prevents any hero passengers from saving the day, even if they realized to copilot was passed out.

 

[Donsa320]

Here's another news story with talk of charred bodies. If the plane ran out of fuel would there still be fire?

http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=1075856

There could have been fuel remaining depending on which tanks it was in and which fuel pumps were on.

DC-9's will not suck fuel from the center tank but I do not know about 737's.

We'll see, it will be determined in the investigation. Puzzling accident though.

~DC