600 hours and frusterated

[mar]

Mincing words

Those that go through those training methods enjoy a big advantage over the US civilian pilot who must instruct and fly freight to get the "time".

Instructing and flying freight is not a disadvantage.

It's gaining that invaluable "real world experience" that you refer to in Post #57.

 

[Lead Sled]

Instructing and flying freight is not a disadvantage.

It's gaining that invaluable "real world experience" that you refer to in Post #57.

I agree 110%

FWIW, Over my career I've had the opportunity to fly with dozens of current and ex-military pilots from all branches of the service. I've seen good military pilots and I've seen ones that didn't quite measure up - and in about the same proportion as the civilian pilots I've flown with. From what I have seen, it all boils down to this: There is generally no substitute for flight time and experience. I'll be the first to admit that flight time isn't everything (I've flown with some high-time bozos.), but you guys know what I'm saying. Experience doesn’t make you manipulate the controls “better”, it allows you to fly “smarter”.

Several years ago, I was an instructor at a 141 flight school that did a lot of "GI Bill" training for military and ex-military pilots. My job was to transition them into the civilian way of doing things and train them for the ME ATP checkride. As I remember, they were given up to 20 hours of flight time to make the transition. I probably worked with 50 different individuals with military experience that ran the whole gamut - fighter, bomber, and transport. The transport guys did the best. They were the ones whose experience most closely paralleled what one would encounter in "the real world" of civilian flying. In most cases, it was very easy to transition these people in the allotted time and they, as a group, did very well on the check ride that followed.

The fighter pilots were an entirely different story. The attributes that make a good fighter pilot do not necessarily make the transition into the civilian world. While most of the transport guys were ready well within the allotted time, almost all of the fighter types required the entire program time allotment and even then, there were a few who were pretty "rough". They were good fighter pilots – they could shoot missiles and dogfight with the best of them. Unfortunately, these are skills rarely required in today's world of airline and corporate flying. The problem was they were good and they knew it and it was hard to tell them anything - they already knew it all.

Four years ago I had the opportunity to fly with a recently retired F-15 fighter pilot. The colonel and I flew an Astra SPX all over the country - a couple of hundred hours worth. On paper, his credentials were impressive - nearly 6,000 hours of jet fighter time and all that goes with it. In reality, his 6,000 hours of military time provided him with an equivalent of perhaps 2,000 hours of civilian experience. Basic things that we would take for granted with a civilian pilot with that amount of time just were not there. Skills like the use of weather radar, FMS operation, etc. and even basic instrument approaches had not been honed because they were of little practical use in the military environment. In this particular pilot's case, he had flown less than 5 actual ILS approaches to minimums during his entire career. (We did more that that the first month we flew together.) He was also not comfortable in serious IFR weather or operating at the various high density airports that we frequented. He was forced to play some serious "catch up ball" if you know what I mean. Again, as I said, there is generally no substitute for flight time and experience.

You military guys will definately have a leg up when your service flying is over, but don’t for a minute think that you’re going to be able to step right out of your military jet into the left seat of a civilian bizjet. It ain't going to happen. In fact, it's going to be pretty tough getting a pilot insured in a corporate jet until he has a minimum of 2000 hours total time.

'Sled

 

[Pervis]

Instructing and flying freight is not a disadvantage.

It's gaining that invaluable "real world experience" that you refer to in Post #57.

I never said or intended to imply that was the case. I am simply stating what an employer percieves as to what experience/training leads to the best, most qualified candidate. That's the reality of the flying business. I will say that after being involved in both sides-teaching Ab Initio for Lufthansa, and getting training in the civilian world at Parks College, as well as military flight training, the military is a far more structured, superior program. Just my humble opinion, but I do have a frame of reference to make the comparison.

 

[mar]

Check the box

You know the problem with pilots?

They all have a checklist mentality.

Do I have this? Check.

Do I have that? Check.

Course complete? Check.

This is the problem with training and has come to shape our expectations towards hiring (which is just another evaluation game).

In response to your post I'll just have to accept it at face value. You've definitely "been there and done that".

Military, civilian, ad initio....EVERYTHING! Who could argue? Thanks for opening my eyes and letting me know where the real valuable experience lies.

 

[SCT]

Sled, That is a great post.

SCT