500 hours...what can i do to build time?

[flynething]

I should start off saying that i was one of those horrible people that went the PFT route. I left a decent paying job to persue my dream of flying, and did not know too much about aviation. The "recruiter" that i spoke to when looking at schools never mentioned this controversy, otherwise i would have investigated other options. It wasn't until i was already doing my time in the right seat that i really learned what PFT means and what it does to the industry. And just to dispell one myth: i am not just a radio / flap operator. I fly every other leg, and whether i paid to be there or not, i am as qualified as anyone else sitting in the right seat. I passed the same 121 checkrides and course work that any other pilot in the right seat of our aircraft does. I may not have the experience that other pilots who have spent time flying 135 or instructing, but i am a safe confident pilot. However, i do not want to flight instruct. Not that passing on the knowledge of flying is not important, as we all had instructors...some good, some bad. I don't feel that i really would be a good instructor, and the idea of taking a 0 time student pilot up and trying to show him how it works scares me. I feel that i am a good pilot, and i definately have a passion for aviation. What possible options will be there for me when i finish my time in the right seat. I would like to spend time doing the "fun" jobs like flying checks and othersuch jobs before i go into the regionals...even though i will have the opportunity to go to the regionals as soon as i finish. Anyone have any suggestions for me? I am not trying to seem noble or be some sort of reformed martyr, i just want to build time and get to the regionals with the right amount of hours and experience.

 

[Timebuilder]

I left a decent paying job to persue my dream of flying, and did not know too much about aviation. The "recruiter" that i spoke to when looking at schools never mentioned this controversy, otherwise i would have investigated other options. It wasn't until i was already doing my time in the right seat that i really learned what PFT means and what it does to the industry.

This is precisely why several of us are trying to educate the newer pilots here, and elsewhere when we can. Knowlege is power, and a pilot who knows the score is far more difficult for an unscrupulous (shady) operator to abuse.

i am as qualified as anyone else sitting in the right seat. I passed the same 121 checkrides and course work that any other pilot in the right seat of our aircraft does. I may not have the experience that other pilots who have spent time flying 135 or instructing, but i am a safe confident pilot.

This is a subjective judgement, to a degree. I could probably take someone with very little flight time and train them to pass the same tests that you passed. This is done every day. What isn't possible is to implant the experience of several hundred hours of explaining, demonstrating, testing, counseling, icing, fueling, loading, and sheer stick time that makes for an experienced pilot.

I don't feel that i really would be a good instructor, and the idea of taking a 0 time student pilot up and trying to show him how it works scares me.

You said you are a confident pilot. If you were confident about taking up a zero time student and giving him the controls, I'd appreciate a greater level of creedence in your estimate of your abilities. Not having done any instructing, it is difficult for you to have an understanding of what you have missed.

I would like to spend time doing the "fun" jobs like flying checks and othersuch jobs before i go into the regionals...even though i will have the opportunity to go to the regionals as soon as i finish. Anyone have any suggestions for me?

Let me tell you about the largest check hauler, Airnet. As the recruiter, Craig looks for a couple of things. The first is about 1,000 TT, but this can go higher or lower. Another thing is recency of expereince. If you have been out of work for several months, this can be a deal breaker. Another thing is flight instructor experience.

Now if Airnet sees flight instructor experience as valuable, as do the captains on hiring boards at airlines, and you aren't picked up right away when your 250 hours is up, you are faced with two problems: lack of recent expereince, and a lack of instructor experience.

Sure, there are other jobs, but there are already hundreds of pilots in line, pilots with expereince, waiting for the next opening at most of the companies that will give you a look.

My advice to overcome this is to find a school that will let you instruct (it has become a privilege, not a "given") if you do your CFI training there at their school.

Then you will triple or quadruple your chances of a career in aviation. Ask yourself: how many PFT guys will/can a regional carrier absorb?

 

[starvingcfi]

timebuilder pretty much hit it on the head. you're not going to get a "fun job flying checks" with 330tt...even if 100 of it is in a '1900 or whatever. i couldn't get a "fun job flying checks" when i had 1000tt. i applied monthly to airnet with no response.

i never ever ever ever ever wanted to be an instructor. i wanted to get a "fun job flying checks." i finally (after sending out hundreds of 300tt resumes) buckled and finished my cfi. i was lucky enough to get an instructing job soon after. i instructed for 14 months and it was great. i always had a blast. the best job i had ever had. the satisfaction of watching someone fly alone from zero time is incredible. very good times.

as far as thinking you can't do it...you should've seen me my first month. i was stumbling and stuttering all over the place. trying to figure out what the hell i was supposed to be doing. it takes a while to get into the groove, but when you figure out your method it's great. sure it gets mundane on the hot days when the student can't hold altitude in steep turns, but that goes with everything.

now i'm flying charter in the northeast (very lucky to have gotten a job) and i'm having a blast. there are days that it gets frustrating (late pax bringing enough luggage to fill a mobile home) but it's great. wouldn't trade it for anything.

i've been up since 4am, so not sure if i'm wandering around in my post here. just give the cfi thing a shot. you'll enjoy it. good luck.

starvingcfi

 

[tdwnds1]

I totally agree with the other couple of posts.

First of all, I would strongly recommend flight intructing. Ok, its not always fun, the pay stinks, but I did it for almost two years to build time and I wouldnt EVER take that experience back. It made me a more confident ,more adept, and most of all a more experienced pilot.

So, My advice is this. First of all, get your CFI and CFII, find a good school or FBO to teach at, build some time. You may wind up liking it. It can actually be fun and there are few better experiences than taking someone who has NO flight experience, making them a pilot and knowing that it was due to your efforts.

Secondly, while you are intructing, talk to EVERYONE. If you want that "fun" job. Networking is the key. You never know when you might run into a person that may hire you now or in the future. I have stayed employed as a direct result of talking to every pilot I meet. Most pilot jobs are not advertised.

You have met with some bad luck in your flying career, keep at advancing your career, but realize like so many othes you are going to have to pay "your dues" to get to that fun job.

 

[marqmarq]

other options

I agree with the previous posts, flight instructing is the Best way to go. But there are other routes. Check with skydiving centers. Many have turbines, some have Casa's requiring 2 pilots. Banner towing is another option. A third is towing gliders, though opportunities are few the and requirements for some tow-ships are probably out of reach for now (ie 100 hours taildragger).

With all of these, cross country time and instrument time will not come quickly, if at all, but the TT goes up, often very quickly. After 1000 TT opportunities will open up for you, they'll close again at 5000 TT, but it's fun in-between! Good luck!

 

[uscpilot]

I have heard that having too many hours can be a detriment. I am curious if this is actually true, and what were the circumstances.
Anyway, all the previous posts about instructing are 100 percent right. You may think you are qualified as a 300 hr pilot. Wait till you start instructing (especially IFR), you will realize how little you know, and how poor you training was (I speak from experience, some of my instrument instructors should have been shot). Even though you are not actually flying the plane you are becoming a better pilot by evaluating your student and in turn evaluating yourself
Good Luck

 

[p.b.]

or you could pay some more and go work for Pinnacle.

 

[celloman]

I was able to land a job as a CFI for a company that also did 135 charter. I have slowly built up my time but now I am doing charter and get to go along as much as I want.... Its a great way to build time and experience.

So If I was you try looking for a 135 operator that also has a flight school!!

Best of Luck

 

[mozzer]

get what you deserve.........

 

[starvingcfi]

...let me add that you will be much easier to fly with when you do get a "real" job. i'm the only cfi at my company and it's tough to fly with them a lot of times. they're very jumpy and sometimes really intolerant. something you did correctly (but they might've done differently) will spark an argument, a "lesson" on "what you should've done", or worse - them grabbing the controls and doing it themselves. it sucks.

sometimes it sucks sitting in the plane and not getting to fly, but it really does make you a better pilot.

good luck.

starvingcfi

 

[flynething]

hey P.B. and mozzer, i asked for real answers, not sarcastic simple minded answers. first off, i don't have to pay pinnacle to get a job, if i interview and they take me, it is on my merit. they realize the training that i have had, and that i would be of value to the company. don't try to sound like you are better than me, that is childish. i admitted that i in some ways regret the decision that i have made, even though i feel that i was mislead. in some ways, i don't regret my decision. i have gained experience that i could never have gotten by instructing, and i have shown that i can be an active, safe, and professional crewmember in a 121 environment. and a question to all of you pro-instructor people. when i was a student working on my instrument rating, we did no real weather flying, very little actual, few "real" instrument approaches, and minimal airways flying. i learned the basic skills that we all learn getting our instrument ticket, but only since i have been flying in the right seat have i actually flown weather many times, real IFR, real approaches, airway flying, and procedures specific to commercial flying. i may have been a bit overwhelmed the first day or two, but aren't we all when we move to a bigger more complex aircraft. you know, i bet that when i finish my 250 hours in the right seat, that could keep up with or even surpass most 1000 hour instructors who have been flying cessnas and seminoles when it comes to getting a job in the regionals. i don't mean that i am better than these people in any way, just that i have real world experience. i know that i still have a lot to learn in aviation, and i hope i always feel that way. instructing might have it's benefits, but 1000 hours in a cessna would never have prepared me for what i am doing now. i am held to the same if not higher standards than the full time f/o's because of my low time and inexperience. believe me, it's not just pay your money, sit down, ride along, don't touch anything. if you try to do that here, you get told to leave. they will take your money and kick your a$$ out without a second though if you can't keep up. the only thing i can do is be a professional and prove that i belong in my seat through my actions. you know what, i am **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** proud of what i have accomplished thus far, and i think that i will be much more prepared for my future in aviation through this *look out...that dirty word* PFT program. like i have said before, instructing is a noble profession, or at least a noble way to advance your career, but i don't feel that it is for everyone, especially not me. you might not agree with this, but if you have nothing constructive to say, don't post here. good luck to all out there, and to those who have answered my post with constructive comments, thank you.

 

[starvingcfi]

....relax...paying f/o's

 

[Timebuilder]

i am **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** proud of what i have accomplished thus far, and i think that i will be much more prepared for my future in aviation through this *look out...that dirty word* PFT program.

While you may have been mislead to begin with, and feel somewhat justified in having participated in the program in retrospect, I would not be "****ing" proud of have been a PFT participant.

You'd like a constuctive comment? Here goes.

Even though you think being an instructor isn't for you, do it anyway. After a year of instructing you will admit, at least to yourself, that it was right for even you. Second, if you get an interview, express contrition and how you were mislead by the PFT sales pitch, and how you now believe it wasn't right, and how much you learned as an instructor.

And try not to think about the hundreds of qualified pilots who were displaced from a job by your former company's actions, and how you have been tainted by helping them.

 

[starvingcfi]

well put, man. well put.

 

[pilot1704]

amazed!

With your +300 , how did you managed to get to fly Be-1900.

To build time, where you live!

You could, teach, do traffic watch, be banner tower...

 

[Badger]

BE1900 Superstars

A hiring board would LOVE to see you. Mostly to vent about how PFT has Fu***ed things up. A BE1900 if anything like a king-Air it's the easiest bird you can ask for as long as everything works. I hope with all of this training they provided doesn't get you and others killed on your next job.

The only card you can play is that you did PFT so they can probably get away with paying you Shi7 for the rest of your life. Managment loves that part.

I think the only way you can redeem yourself now is to forfeit all certificates to the FAA, retest, throw away your (only) logbook (I know there's probably 3/4 blank pages that's ok). Now...THAT would be impressive.

Good luck sucker.

 

[Badger]

And another thing...

Now that I've vented appropriately...

There are not many people that felt CFIing was going to be a fun rewarding experience going into it. It is and it has many career benefits...

Your students...connections and many friendships (most admire you greatly for what you're trying to accomplish).

Your co-workers...walk-ins, referrals, take their last job

Total time...grows on trees

Learn many aircraft... I've flown about 20+ different aircraft in 2.5 yrs CFIing...from motor-gliders to Citation VII.

AND...the guy on the hiring board...if not necessarily military, probably served his 2+ summers in 100 degree C152s.

Now...why is instructing just something you 'don't want to do?'

It's worth it buddy, just do it, like someone else said, you won't know what you're doing when you get your first student but it gets really easy later to figure out how far to let someone go. (it's always alot farther than THEY think they SHOULD go, ie. bad approaches, stalls, spins) that's where it gets fun and they learn something.

 

[cessna_driver2]

Just .02. Ive spoken to several chief pilots and they have all mentioned instructor time and a #1 priority in hiring.

Everyone else I have spoken to (new cfi's and old) have stated that they have learned 200% more about flying than when they were getting their ratings.

I don't know if this helps or just adds fuel to the fire, but dude get the CFI and build time I don't think you will regret it.

 

[HeavyDriver]

CFI ing

You have to do the time if you want to survive. At times instructing can be a real nutcracker, however I agree with the others. Unless you are lucky enough to have a friend/family person grease you in.

 

[p.b.]

flynething-

The point of my post was that with 300 hours, it seems unlikely that Pinnacle will interview you on your merits. BUT if you want to pay for the job, you could escape the horrors of flight instructing.

 

[hydroflyer]

question to all of you pro-instructor people. when i was a student working on my instrument rating, we did no real weather flying, very little actual, few "real" instrument approaches, and minimal airways flying. i learned the basic skills that we all learn getting our instrument ticket, but only since i have been flying in the right seat have i actually flown weather many times, real IFR, real approaches, airway flying, and procedures specific to commercial flying.

Going by this quote I would guess that you did your training down south. Even so, I think several students down south (Florida for example) are getting the short end of the stick when it comes to actual instrument experience. Just the other day I heard a training flight practicing holding about 1,000' below a cloud deck, around 3,000'. Personally, I would have climbed up into the clouds with the student to get the real experience. There was no airspace problems with doing so. Maybe that instructor as well as yours did not have much actual and was hesitant about taking someone up into it.

Don't start attacking the instuctor route on IFR experience based on what your instructor did. I gained just as much actual experience instructing as I have flying freight. When the weather got low, our instructors would call up the instrument students, get them down to the airport and we would go practice approaches to airports with the lowest weather. If no students could come down, then we would pair up and split the cost of the flight and practice approaches ourselves, just for the actual. And by practicing approaches, we rarely climbed more than 2,000' AGL for very long, which kept us in the soup for extended periods of time. Also since instructing is part 91, you can legally make an approach with 1/4 mile visibility, knowing you won't break out, but show the student what it would be like. Can't do that 121 or 135 without higher CAT certification. Flying around at several hundred miles per hour going from city to city usually means you don't spend much time actual. How often do you log more than 1 hour of actual on a duty day? I had some co-workers with over 100 hours of actual by the time they had 1400tt. You just need to go get it. Living in Florida or somewhere down south is not a killer, you may just need to do most of the instrument flying in the morning with the lower clouds before they burn off.

Instructing has proved very valuable to me, especially in giving me good habits that I constantly had to remind my students to do. It truly is amazing what you learn instructing.

 

[sydeseet]

PLEASE DON"T INSTRUCT!!!!!!! Aviation is a hurtin' unit these days with soaring insruance prices, rising fuel costs, and non-existant upward mobility for CFI's . The last thing we need is an instructor with a negative attitude towards his job in a position to influence "young" pilots. A new student, be it a CPA, MD, or whatever watches every move you make from the moment they step through the door. We as CFI's have an unmeasurable amount of influence on every pilot/student they fly with since we are supposed to be the "experts." Your attitude affects everything you do - perception is reality - marketing 101. If you don't want your job, don't like your job, will leave your job the minute you can "have fun flying checks" (not THAT is funny) you are nothing more than a burden on aviation, period. Don't do it man, if it isn't for you then spare yourself and others the heartache. Some people aren't cut out for it: some of those do it anyway at other's expense.

Now, that being said, try traffic watch, banner towing, jump pilot, or any one of a limited number of jobs for guys with low total time and some yet-to-be-worthwhile turbine time.

I'm begging you to not bring down the CFI business any further than it has already sunk.

Have you ever thought about truck driving??????

 

[DitchDriver]

500 TT IS the lucky number for 135 VFR, as long as you have 25 night cross country.

Alaska (might not be very VFR, do the homework), Canyon, or look at cargo forum about VFR freight drivers working for free.

Either way, you'll pay.

 

[Conquest Driver]

Time is not that hard to build

There are always jump pilot jobs available. I know of at least one place that has a 206 or 182 postion open. You will get about 500-700 hours a season and it is a lot of fun. They also can lead to FO postions on a Casa or Otter A/C. Seriously you should look into it. To be honest I only flew a 206 for about 3 months in college for a small operation but I really had a lot of fun and I picked up a couple hundred hours too.


CD

 

[U-I pilot]

I know of at least one place that has a 206 or 182 postion open.

Care to share where this is?

 

[SpocksBeard]

GO FLY SKYDIVERS! I did it for a summer during college too and it was one of the best flying experiences I've had. The pay was laughable but at least they gave me something. I only flew about 50 to 60 hours for them over the summer, but I was only there 4 days a week during the middle of the week. If you do this try to get on with the drop zones with turbine equipment (obviously). You'll fly a 182 or 206 for a long time, but once they like you you can move up fast.

 

[YaMama]

Just the other day I heard a training flight practicing holding about 1,000' below a cloud deck, around 3,000. Personally, I would have climbed up into the clouds with the student to get the real experience.

Man, flying in the clouds with an 80 hour student at the controls and an overworked controller on the radio - what a blast! (seriously).

BTW, it's pretty cool how most non-pilots will react when you tell them you're a flight instructor - the job has a lot of cachet for people who don't know about the aviation food chain. Not that that's a reason to do it - it's just another of the little things that I relish about being a CFI...



P.S. Is there a way to adjust the blink rate on this stupid cursor? It's giving me a headache ...

 

[Icywings2]

Look, get off of flynething!!!

He didn’t start the thread to open a debate about PFT or to ask the wild animals to circle around him and tear him up.

He asked for some advice and from what I can see not many of you have given any. Instead you have almost all torn him apart for making the decision he made. He has already said that he was lured into the pft thing. Just because he would like an alternative to being a CFI all of the poor little CFI’s out here have gathered around and done nothing but be a bunch of jerks.

Badger, sydeseet, Timebuilder, pb, --- You strike me as the number one group of jerks in this little group. How dare you post such crap to a person asking for your advice and help? How RUDE is that? I would hate to have you as my instructor I would be afraid to ask you for some instruction. You may be upset that I don’t want to do the approach your way and rip me apart. You are disgrace to other pilots. This forum is set-up to help each other.

Some of you go with PFT some of you go CFI and some of you don’t do either. I know 4 people that did PFT that are flying for airlines today on a NON PFT basis. Oh and if you are concerned about who they are with …allow me to list.

American Airlines
Comair
Delta
Executive Jet

I also know some that went the cfi route. It seems to me that the majority of the CFI’s out there have a bit of an attitude. They are always the ones that seem negative. I wonder why that is. Usually it is jealousy, that they weren’t able to earn enough money on their own to afford PFT, but maybe not.

I did some PFT and I am dong my MEI. Why? Because I think all experience is good experience. The PFT flying gave me something no CFI job could ever give me. Until you do it, don’t bag it. Also, the CFI stuff gives a discipline that PFT didn’t. PFT was more CRM stuff when being a CFI you are on your own. I have done both and can talk about both. Hey Badger, sydeseet, timebuilder or pb, did you do both? I bet not! So don’t talk about something you don’t know anything about.

FLYNETHING—I am sorry that I myself can’t offer some advice since that is really the purpose of this thread. However, I just can’t sit back and watch a bunch of anonymous babies rip you apart for asking anymore. On behalf of the majority of the airline community I apologize and am embarrassed by some of this. Good luck and I really hope it works out for you. Don’t listen to some of the idiots here. Take the positive ideas and run with them. Yea the PFT might bite you in the rear during an interview if someone like badger is on the interview board, but from what I know from people that make the decision to hire, they actually look on it pretty positively.

However, they also like a CFI on there. So, maybe become a double threat and do both. I know if you are a CFI, have B1900 time, and you are up for the same job against someone that only is a CFI with no PFT, well, bye bye CFI. You’ll get the job due to having the CRM, PFT and CFI experience that the CFI won’t have. Common sense should tell us all that.

Sorry to ALL for being so long winded, I just think it is so wrong to rip people apart that ask for help. If he had asked what people think about PFT vs CFI, God help the internet for the fury that would occur.  Since he didn’t ask that, well…. You get my point.

Like Rodney King once said… “Can’t we all just get along?” hehe

 

[sydeseet]

Quote: "Badger, sydeseet, Timebuilder, pb, You strike me as the number one group of jerks in this little group."


I think we've been trumped..........

 

[p.b.]

Icywings2,

Since you had no job ideas for Flynething, your post proves the exact point I was making. There is very little he can do with 330 hours other than take the regional interview offered at the end of his pft or Flight Instruct.

You are correct I did not PFT, I was in a position to fly for a regional which required pft and one that did not. I chose what I felt was the respectable route, and I did not buy my job. I'm proud of that choice, if you are proud of paying for your job then be proud. You only have to answer to your own conscience.