3M flight dept

[Gulfstream 200]

oh thats bad.

should have taken the train.

 

[banned username 2]

Heck, the G550 with 6,750 NM range isn't enough for our trips!!!! We would still have to stop for go-go juice!!

Yeah, no kidding... besides that we'd need a "refill" on the catering by then!

 

[JetPilot500]

Yeah, no kidding... besides that we'd need a "refill" on the catering by then!

Yeah, 18 hour old catering would be quite DISGUSTING!

 

[GVFlyer]

Miscellaneous ramblings

THIS was my biggest disappointment when I read about the Global Express XRS. Kinda like when Falcon came out with the Falcon 2000EX, I was like "Where are the inboard leading edge slats??? You guys go through an entire certification process and don't add inboard leading edge slats to this plane??? Some Frenchman needs a serious ass-whoopin'!!!"

The XRS has serious specific fuel consumption problems. Additional thrust equals additional fuel burn which would exacerbate this problem - even with the improved fuel specifics of the new engine. The Globals have a time limited amount of additional thrust for climb. The G550 uses the extra 1270lbs of thrust for take-off and climb - to quickly get to the altitudes which minimize fuel burn. In cruise you are pulling it back.

OK, NOW I am scared... I am complimenting Gulfstream and you are complimenting Falcon... There must be some weird Lunar activity going on, I hope all the costal cities along the Pacific have their Tsunami flags waving!

I think it's the tides, sun spots, phases of the moon and Harmonic Convergence.

... That extra 1,000 NM range (6,700 vs. 5,700 NM) would help a lot, and even take out the "seat sucking, pucker factor" on some of the shorter legs...

I know exactly what you mean. After some record flights in the old GV demonstrator - sn 502, which was over 1500 Production Change Orders away from being a real GV (it had been the stress test airplane and had short non- flying pylons, a non-sculpted high drag cockpit roof, bad fuel specific - A engines, draggy wings, low capacity fuel cells and so forth), I have had the press approach me and ask, "How much fuel did you have after landing?" and I have truthfully replied, "Oh, I had a ton of fuel!" NBAA fuel reserves for the GV is 2860lbs.

GV

 

[Northern Lights]

5 GV's and they do numerous trips a year to a resort up in northern MN somewhere. Go VFR sometimes.

Gotta be fun, VFR in a GV for 150 miles or so...

I remember summer 2000, I was taking a student on an IFR training flight from STP to BRD (Brainerd) about 80nm north of STP. As we're preflighting we see the 3M hanger open up and they pulled out 4 of the jets. About half way to BRD, those jets all started passing us, also going in to Brainerd. It got to be quite a mess once we got there, since they were dropping the pax off and returning to STP. Being an uncontrolled airport it is one in/one out, and we had 7 planes trying to get in that day (4 GV's, us, a Mesaba and a cessna)The center controller was thrilled when he recieved our cancellation! VFR was easier that day.

I had a NWA pilot mention that he'd be glad to give up his seat there to fly for 3M.

 

[Valkyrie]

GV Flyer, are you a Gulfstream Salesman?

One of the first Global Express was sold 29.75M$
Wasn't it a good deal?

A US company had a Global Express for the price of a new GIV.
Looks like another good deal.

Global's main advantages are cabin width and market depreciation...

 

[rice]

MGTOW

Yeah, no kidding... besides that we'd need a "refill" on the catering by then!

Hope you guys are ordering from the new Atkins friendly menu.

 

[fokkerjet]

Hey GVFlyer

What's the type rating situation for the "new" Gulfstreams? Will I be able to fly the G450 and G550 with my GIV and GV type (after differences training) or do I need a new type rating? Also, if someone new to the aircraft trains exclusively to either the G450 or G550, are they rewarded with a type rating that is common to both new models?

Have you turned 501 into a beer can yet

 

[GVFlyer]

GV Flyer, are you a Gulfstream Salesman?

No.

One of the first Global Express was sold 29.75M$
Wasn't it a good deal?
A US company had a Global Express for the price of a new GIV.
Looks like another good deal.

Bombardier was looking for market penetration. AIG got a better deal than that. In the short run, sometimes getting 29.75 million for a product is better than not getting 43 million. In the long run, it significantly devalues your product in the preowned market. In aviation, as in most other endeavors, there is no free lunch. The early Globals were many months late on delivery then had to return to the Bombardier mod line for extensive modifications.

Global's main advantages are cabin width and market depreciation...

The Global is 10 inches wider than the G550, has a smaller completion weight allowance and weighs up to 7,000 lbs more while carrying no more payload. The market depreciation speaks for itself.

Thanks for your comments.

GV

 

[banned username 2]

The Global is 10 inches wider than the G550

This is probably what I consider the main downside to the G-v/500/550 line. I wish it had the cabin width of the Global... I realize that increases the wetted area and would degrade performance slightly, but man it would be nice!

 

[GVFlyer]

Fokkerjet

Good to hear from you again.

The GV/G550 is the same type. Differences training can be accomplished in conjunction with recurrent training.

A determination has not been made for the G450, but my feeling is that G450/G500/G550 will be the same type.

Not yet a beer can, 501 is back at Savannah as the aerodynamic test article for the G550.

GV








.

 

[GVFlyer]

This is probably what I consider the main downside to the G-v/500/550 line. I wish it had the cabin width of the Global... I realize that increases the wetted area and would degrade performance slightly, but man it would be nice!

While I consider 10 inches to be insignificant (in most things), you're right - a cabin width increase of just 10 inches would significantly increase form (or profile) drag. The 26 inch cabin windows would also go as they are conformal to the fuselage radius.

Such an increase is also inconsistent with Gulfstream design philosophy which is performance based. In the final analysis it's always F=MA and thus the engine's thrust deck is what determines how much volume can be propelled through the air at similar velocities. Bombardier has elected to devote more volume to the fuselage and less to the wing than has Gulfstream. Wing area for the Global is 1,002 square feet - the G550 wing area is 1,136.7 square feet. The resultant is an aircraft that, in the case of the Global, suffers from high wing loading - 98 lbs per sq.ft. and is buffet limited. G550 wing loading is nearly 20% less at 80 lbs. per sq. ft. and the Gulfstream is not buffet limited.

GV

 

[AeroDMB]

5 GV's and they do numerous trips a year to a resort up in northern MN somewhere. Go VFR sometimes.

Gotta be fun, VFR in a GV for 150 miles or so....

I was "sandwiched" between two of their GV's into Park Rapids last May on final. I was in a SR22 (pushing yellow arc) and thought I could keep up with them in formation but gave in and let the one behind me ahead...it was a neat site to say the least.

Once on the ramp, it seems they were drooling over my airplane more than I was over their's. Funny how pilots work...

 

[MACH-TUCK]

I remember summer 2000, I was taking a student on an IFR training flight from STP to BRD (Brainerd) about 80nm north of STP. As we're preflighting we see the 3M hanger open up and they pulled out 4 of the jets. About half way to BRD, those jets all started passing us, also going in to Brainerd. It got to be quite a mess once we got there, since they were dropping the pax off and returning to STP. Being an uncontrolled airport it is one in/one out, and we had 7 planes trying to get in that day (4 GV's, us, a Mesaba and a cessna)The center controller was thrilled when he recieved our cancellation! VFR was easier that day.

I had a NWA pilot mention that he'd be glad to give up his seat there to fly for 3M.

Yeah, I was pumping gas that day at Airmotive, it was one of the coolest sites Ive ever seen in my life......4 GVs in the pattern at once....then they land and like 3 execs get out of each one....seems to me like they all could have rode on one. I guess its there policy that they all can't ride in one plane...

I also remeber some cessnas coming in thinking they were at the wrong airport.

 

[AeroDMB]

One of the finest flight departments around...hope to work for them someday.

 

[semperfido]

My company is nearly twice that size, we could use a couple of those G-V's for the trips we do...

size isn't everything. but a g550 seems to have it all. i am sitting here trying to think of some g550 shortcomings and i can tell you there aren't many. range maybe- it just won't go quite far enough.

 

[SlapShot]

GVFlyer-

I have always wondered why the Gulfstreams do not have leading edge slats. Wouldn't these help them significantly on shorter runways (which is where most corporate departments are based)?

 

[AA717driver]

I'll give my $.02 worth on this. Mx-wise, slats are a major pain. They are a mechanical delay looking for a place to happen.

The V/550 have pretty slow approach speeds, great brakes and TR's so short fields aren't that much of a problem. We've been into Palomar, CA--4,800' (below our generally accepted minimum runway length of 5000') and it wasn't a problem. When you get a runway shorter than 5,000', you often run into a ramp space problem.

GV can explain it to you in great detail.TC

 

[semperfido]

my guess is that the airplane doesn't need them. gulfstream met their design specs without them...so why bother? also they add weight and complexity. all the fuel in a G is in the wing as well, so the space is needed for fuel. just a guess.

 

[banned username 2]

Mx-wise, slats are a major pain. They are a mechanical delay looking for a place to happen.

Well in our Falcon fleets 28,000+ hours of flight time, I am not aware of any MX delays due to the slats of related systems...

I have to agree, that Gulfstream got the G-V/G-550 right as it has good runway numbers and slow REF speeds (comperable REF speeds to our Falcon 900EX)...

From what I understand the G-IV has quite a bit higher REF speed and worse runway numbers, the G-IV probably could have benefitted from slats...

 

[AA717driver]

Sorry about that, Falcon Capt. My reference comes from what I've heard on the street about GLEX's and my experience with slatted airline types. I forgot the Falcons have slats.

Do you know what slats add to normal mx costs?

The IV's approach speeds are higher than the V but not blindingly fast. Maybe 7-10 kts. faster for an equivalent approach?TC

 

[banned username 2]

Sorry about that, Falcon Capt. My reference comes from what I've heard on the street about GLEX's and my experience with slatted airline types. I forgot the Falcons have slats.

I have heard some bad things about the GLEX's Flap/Slat system... Sounds like they have a lot of problems with it...

Do you know what slats add to normal mx costs?

That I have no idea... I am not aware of anything special that is done to the slats beyond the normal MX checks... But then again, I'm not involved with the MX side...

The IV's approach speeds are higher than the V but not blindingly fast. Maybe 7-10 kts. faster for an equivalent approach?

Oh, ok... I was under the impression the IV's ref's were a good 15+ kts faster than the V...

 

[semperfido]

typical g4 ref = 131
typical gv ref = 119

at max land weight of 66,000 lb in g4 the ref is 148 + 10 for app = 158
at max land weight of 75,000 lb in a g550 ref is 136 + 5 for app= 141
so app speed could be about 15kts faster in g4 and it does seem a lot faster at max land weight.

very little mx req'd on our f50/f900 slats - work good last long time. very nice

 

[AA717driver]

I stand corrected...

I shot my mouth off without having flown the plane. Funny, the sim didn't seem to be that much faster than the 550.

In any event, I finally go to fly the IV this morning and it was like fido said, about 15 kts. faster than the V. I like it, though. It feels like a "real man's airplane" . I hope the G450 keeps that feel.TC

 

[banned username 2]

I hope the G450 keeps that feel.TC

I heard the G-450 was made to feel more like the G-V than the G-IV...

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The Twin Cities aren't THAT cold! I used to live in an American city (not AK) that was VERY cold. We used to watch the weather channel in the winter, and every day we would say we wished we lived in Fargo because the weather there was better! And, with global warming the Twin Cities are getting milder every year. Two seasons ago here in GRB the Packers had a home game in mid-December. 65 degrees and sunny!

3M's flight department is awesome, and about impossible to get into (I have a friend who's an engineer for 3M).

Oh, if you're conservative, you don't want to live in MSP. It's the only large city in the Midwest that is just like living on the West Coast. It's great!!!

Cliff
HEF

 

[tk855]

Oh, if you're conservative, you don't want to live in MSP. It's the only large city in the Midwest that is just like living on the West Coast. It's great!!!

Cliff
HEF

Are you serious? This coming from someone in Wisconsin! Do you seriously think MSP is more liberal than Milwaukee or Madison? If you do, I believe you may have spent too much time outside during the winter!

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Madison is about as non-conservative as the Twin Cities, but it's not a LARGE CITY. I think MKE is very conservative. GRB is pretty conservative also, but not too bad.

I would like to live in MSN, but it's not as big, so there's less to do than in MSP. Plus I like MN a lot better than WI.

Cliff
HEF

PS-I think Portland, OR, overall, is the best US city to live in.

 

[tony77]

I still think Global Express ROCKS!!!!

 

[GVFlyer]

I heard the G-450 was made to feel more like the G-V than the G-IV...

Yep, Gulfstream has been able to shave off 5-8 knots knots (depending on weight) from Vref speeds on the G350/G450 from the old G-IV speeds. Additionally, the G350/G450 benefits from the new FADECs and Auto-Throttles and is flown at Vref +5 rather than Vref + 10 as is done on the G-IV.

Whoever said that the Gulfstream doesn't have leading edge devices because it doesn't need them is exacty correct. The 93.47 ft., 1136.6 sq ft, wide chord, low wing loading wing with a nominal sweep of 27.88 degrees is a Swiss Army knife of a wing design allowing you to do anything from steep turns at 51,000 feet to flying an approach speed of 112 knots without the need of any additional aerodynamic devices.

In the last two weeks I've been into Carlsbad (4800 ft) and Olympia (presently 4600ft) with a Vref no greater than 114 knots and was able to make the mid-field turn-off at both facilities.

Gulfstream's philosophy is that when you buy leading edge devices you pay for them three times. The first when you buy them (complexity adds to costs), the next time to carry them around (weight of actuators and linkage), and the third time to maintain them (complexity adds to required maintenance and failure rate).

From my standpoint, the leading edge on aircraft with slats is nasty. Even with the pristine leading edge on the GV, if we are going out to do stalls we inspect the gap seals to insure that they are not deteriorating. A bad gap seal can inject a stream of high velocity air below the boundary layer on the wing's upper surface and cause early separation and stall.

Thanks for asking.

GV