3M flight dept

[GVFlyer]

Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing Co.

I believe it's "mining".

3M is currently using their tail numbers for a call sign. Note that they all end in "3M".

It's a great flight department if you don't mind living in the nation's freezer section. Unfortunately, their first rate Aviation Director has just been promoted out of the flight department.

GV

 

[IP076]

5 GV's and they do numerous trips a year to a resort up in northern MN somewhere. Go VFR sometimes.

Gotta be fun, VFR in a GV for 150 miles or so....

Nation's Freezer Section????

Don't know about you, but I walked inside and opened my Freezer to help warm up this morning!

There's something to be said about a place that can build a castle out of ice and it stays around for a month or two! (or five)

 

[banned username 2]

Falcon Captain will get a Dassault 7X for their short range trips (5700nm) and a Gulfstream G550 for the long ones (6750nm @ M .80, 6500nm @ M.83, 6000nm @ M.85, 5000nm @ M.87). The G550 has 6% more thrust (30,770 lbs) than the GV and flys 4% farther on the same amount of fuel. Ain't technology grand? At least Falcon has figured out that if three engine airplanes were a good idea someone else besides them would make a three-holer.

GV

Well I can't believe I am going to say this, BUT we could use the range of the G-550 for the trips that we do... The 7X would be a hugh improvement over the 900EX but would still leave us short getting out and back on some of our Asia trips... From Anchorage to Singapore we would still need a fuel stop where the G-550 could possibly do it non-stop if the conditions (winds) are right.... Singapore to Anchorage would be better in the G-550 also...

The new Global Express XRS numbers are looking good too... Actually does better than the G-550 at high speed... Time will tell... right now we are just laying low...

 

[THE Flying Ace]

3M has a big resort by Park Rapids, MN. During the summer they're running back and forth.

 

[GVFlyer]

Well I can't believe I am going to say this, BUT we could use the range of the G-550 for the trips that we do... The 7X would be a hugh improvement over the 900EX but would still leave us short getting out and back on some of our Asia trips... From Anchorage to Singapore we would still need a fuel stop where the G-550 could possibly do it non-stop if the conditions (winds) are right.... Singapore to Anchorage would be better in the G-550 also...

The new Global Express XRS numbers are looking good too... Actually does better than the G-550 at high speed... Time will tell... right now we are just laying low...

I am pleased and amazed!

PANC to WSSS is 5786.7nm - the Gulfstream G550 will do that trip against 100% Boeing Winds. Going the other way, the G550 has flown 7301nm from Seoul, Korea to Savannah, GA.

The Global Express XRS allegedly will fly 6150nm. Remember Bombardier claimed that the Global Express would fly 6500nm - their Cruise Control Manual now shows that the "typical" Global Express will fly 6175nm @ M.80 and no longer supports their range guarantee. The Global Express that the Big G instrumented and tested showed a more typical real world range would be 5700nm.

When compared to the Global Express, the XRS has larger windows, an improved pressurization system and EVS. The XRS will not use the improved, higher thrust BR710A1-10 engines which are standard on the G550. The XRS is achieving whatever range increase they will eventually get by adding another 1486 lbs of fuel to cuffs added around the wings where they join the fuselage. They had already added a fiberglass 2,000 lb fuselage tank during Global development. Total fuel on the XRS is 44,836.

The Gulfstream G550 goes 6750nm with 8 pax and a crew of 4 against 85% Boeing Winds with NBAA reserves using only 41,300lbs of fuel or about 9% less fuel used than the Global XRS. All of the fuel on the Gulfstream is in the wings - the only fuel management required is insuring that you load enough on board to make your destination.

Remember that the Global Express XRS is a developmental airplane and is not yet certified. The G550 is a fully certified and operational aircraft. First customer deliveries of completed aircraft began in early Fall 2003.

It will be interesting to see how XRS development goes. Pete Reynolds, who is one of the best test pilots in the industry and the Chief Test Pilot for Bombardier Business Aircraft during Global Express Certification, was dismissed from Bombardier prior to the initiation of the current product line.

My biggest personal beef against the Global line is that it is a buffet-limited jet and does not offer the kind of margins found in the Gulfstream GV and it's derivatives. On the G550 there is over a 100 knot window between compressibility and stall at 51,000 feet. Gulfstream has never departed a GV/G550 during development or any other phase of flight. Pete and his test boys had to pull the chute on the Global to regain controlled flight when it pitched-up during FAA required stall testing.

I like the Falcon 7X concept; I think it will be a good aircraft. Neat wing. It will compete against the Gulfstream G500 and the Global 5000.

GV

 

[banned username 2]

The XRS will not use the improved, higher thrust BR710A1-10 engines which are standard on the G550.

THIS was my biggest disappointment when I read about the Global Express XRS. Kinda like when Falcon came out with the Falcon 2000EX, I was like "Where are the inboard leading edge slats??? You guys go through an entire certification process and don't add inboard leading edge slats to this plane??? Some Frenchman needs a serious ass-whoopin'!!!"

I like the Falcon 7X concept; I think it will be a good aircraft. Neat wing. It will compete against the Gulfstream G500 and the Global 5000.

OK, NOW I am scared... I am complimenting Gulfstream and you are complimenting Falcon... There must be some weird Lunar activity going on, I hope all the costal cities along the Pacific have their Tsunami flags waving!

I agree, I think the 7X looks like a very neat aircraft... It will be a good "Very Long Range" aircraft... But for our mission, an "Ultra-Long Range" aircraft would fit the bill better... That extra 1,000 NM range (6,700 vs. 5,700 NM) would help a lot, and even take out the "seat sucking, pucker factor" on some of the shorter legs...

Time will tell, right now we are just laying low and "Happy to be Here!"

 

[Gulfstreamlover]

Hey Falcon Capt. just send that 7X to my flight department sence it's not good enough for ya

 

[banned username 2]

Hey Falcon Capt. just send that 7X to my flight department sence it's not good enough for ya

I never thought I'd see the day where I thought a 4,500 NM range Falcon 900EX was not long range enough!

 

[JetPilot500]

I never thought I'd see the day where I thought a 4,500 NM range Falcon 900EX was not long range enough!

Heck, the G550 with 6,750 NM range isn't enough for our trips!!!! We would still have to stop for go-go juice!!

 

[Gulfstreamlover]

Hell we had to stop on the way to Chicago in the 501 from Baltimore

 

[Gulfstream 200]

oh thats bad.

should have taken the train.

 

[banned username 2]

Heck, the G550 with 6,750 NM range isn't enough for our trips!!!! We would still have to stop for go-go juice!!

Yeah, no kidding... besides that we'd need a "refill" on the catering by then!

 

[JetPilot500]

Yeah, no kidding... besides that we'd need a "refill" on the catering by then!

Yeah, 18 hour old catering would be quite DISGUSTING!

 

[GVFlyer]

Miscellaneous ramblings

THIS was my biggest disappointment when I read about the Global Express XRS. Kinda like when Falcon came out with the Falcon 2000EX, I was like "Where are the inboard leading edge slats??? You guys go through an entire certification process and don't add inboard leading edge slats to this plane??? Some Frenchman needs a serious ass-whoopin'!!!"

The XRS has serious specific fuel consumption problems. Additional thrust equals additional fuel burn which would exacerbate this problem - even with the improved fuel specifics of the new engine. The Globals have a time limited amount of additional thrust for climb. The G550 uses the extra 1270lbs of thrust for take-off and climb - to quickly get to the altitudes which minimize fuel burn. In cruise you are pulling it back.

OK, NOW I am scared... I am complimenting Gulfstream and you are complimenting Falcon... There must be some weird Lunar activity going on, I hope all the costal cities along the Pacific have their Tsunami flags waving!

I think it's the tides, sun spots, phases of the moon and Harmonic Convergence.

... That extra 1,000 NM range (6,700 vs. 5,700 NM) would help a lot, and even take out the "seat sucking, pucker factor" on some of the shorter legs...

I know exactly what you mean. After some record flights in the old GV demonstrator - sn 502, which was over 1500 Production Change Orders away from being a real GV (it had been the stress test airplane and had short non- flying pylons, a non-sculpted high drag cockpit roof, bad fuel specific - A engines, draggy wings, low capacity fuel cells and so forth), I have had the press approach me and ask, "How much fuel did you have after landing?" and I have truthfully replied, "Oh, I had a ton of fuel!" NBAA fuel reserves for the GV is 2860lbs.

GV

 

[Northern Lights]

5 GV's and they do numerous trips a year to a resort up in northern MN somewhere. Go VFR sometimes.

Gotta be fun, VFR in a GV for 150 miles or so...

I remember summer 2000, I was taking a student on an IFR training flight from STP to BRD (Brainerd) about 80nm north of STP. As we're preflighting we see the 3M hanger open up and they pulled out 4 of the jets. About half way to BRD, those jets all started passing us, also going in to Brainerd. It got to be quite a mess once we got there, since they were dropping the pax off and returning to STP. Being an uncontrolled airport it is one in/one out, and we had 7 planes trying to get in that day (4 GV's, us, a Mesaba and a cessna)The center controller was thrilled when he recieved our cancellation! VFR was easier that day.

I had a NWA pilot mention that he'd be glad to give up his seat there to fly for 3M.

 

[Valkyrie]

GV Flyer, are you a Gulfstream Salesman?

One of the first Global Express was sold 29.75M$
Wasn't it a good deal?

A US company had a Global Express for the price of a new GIV.
Looks like another good deal.

Global's main advantages are cabin width and market depreciation...

 

[rice]

MGTOW

Yeah, no kidding... besides that we'd need a "refill" on the catering by then!

Hope you guys are ordering from the new Atkins friendly menu.

 

[fokkerjet]

Hey GVFlyer

What's the type rating situation for the "new" Gulfstreams? Will I be able to fly the G450 and G550 with my GIV and GV type (after differences training) or do I need a new type rating? Also, if someone new to the aircraft trains exclusively to either the G450 or G550, are they rewarded with a type rating that is common to both new models?

Have you turned 501 into a beer can yet

 

[GVFlyer]

GV Flyer, are you a Gulfstream Salesman?

No.

One of the first Global Express was sold 29.75M$
Wasn't it a good deal?
A US company had a Global Express for the price of a new GIV.
Looks like another good deal.

Bombardier was looking for market penetration. AIG got a better deal than that. In the short run, sometimes getting 29.75 million for a product is better than not getting 43 million. In the long run, it significantly devalues your product in the preowned market. In aviation, as in most other endeavors, there is no free lunch. The early Globals were many months late on delivery then had to return to the Bombardier mod line for extensive modifications.

Global's main advantages are cabin width and market depreciation...

The Global is 10 inches wider than the G550, has a smaller completion weight allowance and weighs up to 7,000 lbs more while carrying no more payload. The market depreciation speaks for itself.

Thanks for your comments.

GV

 

[banned username 2]

The Global is 10 inches wider than the G550

This is probably what I consider the main downside to the G-v/500/550 line. I wish it had the cabin width of the Global... I realize that increases the wetted area and would degrade performance slightly, but man it would be nice!