250 below 10000

[Hold West]

ATC has the authority to waive the 250kt. restriction below 10,000 feet if there is an operational need. The "administrator" will never see a pilot's request to waive this, therefore it is handled by one of her designee's. Air Traffic Controllers are designee's of the administrator with the authority to act on her behalf in this matter if there is an operational need.

Nope. I'll say it again, I can't waive FARs. Any FARs. You are confusing the operational advantage clause in my rules, the 7110.65, that allows me to assign slower speeds than the recommended minima if an operational advantage can be gained. Someone quoted it up-thread.

 

[Hold West]

Which rule you going to follow?

4-4-1. Clearance

a. A clearance issued by ATC is predicated on known traffic and known physical airport conditions. An ATC clearance means an authorization by ATC, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified conditions within controlled airspace. IT IS NOT AUTHORIZATION FOR A PILOT TO DEVIATE FROM ANY RULE, REGULATION, OR MINIMUM ALTITUDE NOR TO CONDUCT UNSAFE OPERATION OF THE AIRCRAFT.

b. 14 CFR Section 91.3(a) states: "The pilot-in-command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." If ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation, or in the pilot's opinion, would place the aircraft in jeopardy, IT IS THE PILOT'S RESPONSIBILITY TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE.

The above is excerpted from the AIM, my emphasis added. I think it's pretty clear which rule takes precedence.​

 

[Hold West]

He is not my buddy, just my college professor who teaches advanced Air Traffic Control courses.

Ah, jeez, another one of those. Ask a real controller, will ya?

 

[Hold West]

Oops

Just noticed this is a month-old thread, and most of this ground has been covered already. Argh!

Sorry, I'm new here.

 

[penguin22]

Just noticed this is a month-old thread, and most of this ground has been covered already. Argh!

Sorry, I'm new here.

Yes, I've read the whole thread too, and we're all in agreement that ATC can't issue a waiver to exceed 250 below 10, but I've still got (sorry) one question.

Has the ADMINISTRATOR issued a waiver to westbound departures out of LAX, to allow >250 kts below 10, while still within the 12 mile limit? Seems to me ATC acts like they've been given a waiver for these departures over the water. (Any LAX controllers out there?)

Because I'm frequently assigned a speed >250 when I'm over the water and still below 10. For example, climbing out of 6000, I get assigned 280 knots. Not "280 when able", not "do not exceed 280", just 280 knots. This is on the LOOP 4 or the LAXX 5 departures. We are over the water the whole time we're below 10. By the time we're crossing the shoreline eastbound, we're above 10.

 

[Hold West]

(Any LAX controllers out there?)

I posted your question on our union BBS, hopefully I'll get an answer tomorrow. My guess is no - judging by the absence of any such waiver in the Class II Notam publication.

 

[Say Again Over]

I know you asked the ATC specialist but this whole thread addresses the issue, the answer would be NO, they can and will ask you to increase to 280 kts, the answer would be "sorry unable do to FAR's". If I have it wrong I'm sure someone will let me know.

 

[Hold West]

LAX answers

The 280 kt restriction is intended to be a "do not exceed" according to my union buds down there:

Answer 1, from SOCAL:

"I work the LAX Departure traffic. The 280kt restriction is a static flow restriction that the Center puts on us all day every day, regardless of traffic. We didn't have this flow until about 5 years ago, when some of the newer TRACON controllers were jamming the Center. Instead of dealing with the controllers, the FAA put in permanent flow. It will remain unless there are user complaints. I personally hate the 280kts. A couple of calls from pilots (hint hint) might get the FAA to relieve this situation and save you guys some time/fuel.

"As far as saying "maintain 280kts" when the aircraft is below 10,000, that would be lax phraseology. I personally issue either "maintain 280kts when able," or "do not exceed 280kts." The latter doesn't really comply with the agreement between the two facilities, but so far it has seemed to work. I would prefer just to let them run."

Answer 2, LA center perspective:

"I work the first center sector that handles the LAXX5 departures travelling Eastbound. Due the various mix of jets that come out of LAX, our flow control places a 280 knot restriction on jet departures coming into our sector. This speed restriction does not override the FAR's and the 250 kt requirement below 10, 000 feet. If SCT issues "maintain 280 kts", they are not implying a waiver to the FAR's. Therefore, the pilot should maintain 250 kts till above 10,000 feet and then accelerate to 280 kts."

There you have it....

 

[penguin22]

There you have it....

So there it is. Thanks for your help.

 

[penguin22]

I know you asked the ATC specialist but this whole thread addresses the issue, the answer would be NO, they can and will ask you to increase to 280 kts, the answer would be "sorry unable do to FAR's". If I have it wrong I'm sure someone will let me know.

Yes, that would be correct (see Hold West's last post), but it's not worth tying up a busy freqency with a pissing match with the controller. I've been just taking the clearance and not complying for a couple minutes until we're out of 10.