24 more pilots for ASa

[COOPERVANE]

Ask your nearest PBS trainer what will happen when we plug 14 hour 4-days into this thing (the original trips were pretty much that awful)-ask them how many days off you can expect with that eventuality. It is time to go through some "what-if" scenarios and really understand what can happen. If it can get bad-it will, ASA has taken full advantage of any and every loophole and oversight in every past agreement. Why should they stop now?

5 four days?

This is pappagiorio's wet dream. EVERYBODY at work 20 days a month, low block. LOTS of airport sits AKA airport ready reserve. We dont need any reserves, WE are all reserves.

 

[Medeco]

I'm really gettin tired of the fear being spread.

Dispute resolution language​

o​

​

​

​

This language specifies a coin-toss method for publishing of the lines,
if the Association and the Company cannot mutually agree on the final
schedule.​

o​

​

​

​

If the coin-toss method is used three times during a six month period,​

the dispute is moved to an expedited arbitration.

Trip Construction Language​

o​

​

​

​

Limit placed on the total number of four (4) day trips within a position
to sixty-percent (60%) maximum.​

o​

​

​

​

Trips will not be constructed to exceed four (4) days without the​

consent of the Association.

 

[Medeco]

Trip Construction – Replace​

34
35 1. Trip Construction
36 a. The Company and the Association recognize that a variety of
37 productive trips are essential for the best overall PBS bid run solution.
38 To the extent reasonably practicable and considering the Company’s
39 utilization parameters, operational productivity and performance, costs
40 and efficient use of staffing, the Company will construct trips as​

41 follows:

(1) With block times front loaded toward the beginning of the trip,
2​

(2) Minimize the use of extended breaks within a duty period, and​

3​

(3) Maintain a mix of types of trips, e.g., 1-day, 2-day, 3-day, 4-day,​

4​

and​

5 (4)​

These parameters are to be considered in the context of the entire​

6​

schedule, and the parties recognize that not all trips will comply​

7​

with these parameters.
8 b. Notwithstanding the parameters in paragraph 1.a., above, the
9 Company will not construct more than sixty percent (60%) of the total
10 number of trips in each position as 4-day trips.
11 (1) CDO and BOTC trips will be included in the calculation of the
12 percentage limitation in paragraph 1.b., above, regarding 4-day
13 trips;
14 (2) A trip will not be constructed to exceed four (4) days.
15 c. Notwithstanding the limitations in paragraphs 1.a., and 1.b., above, the
16 PWG, may waive such limitations on a case-by-case basis to improve
17 the quality of trips and lines. Such waiver will not be unreasonably
18 withheld. The Company will increase the number of CDO trips, as
19 reasonably practicable, so as to enhance the ability to meet the
20 parameters required in paragraph 1.b., above.
21 d. The Company will provide the Association with access to the pairing​

22​

generation software. The pairings generated by the Association​

23​

member(s) will be taken into consideration when developing a pairing​

24​

solution.​

25​

e. ASC members may be required to execute a confidentiality and​

26​

nondisclosure agreement to participate in the activities described in​

27 paragraph d., above.

 

[crj567]

Tell us all, senior Medeco, what will happen if we have 4 days credited to 15-17 hours (like we originally did for Feb,)and that credit window is 70 hours?

-What will the system do? Hint:-It won't just give up and let you go.

-Please enlighten us....

-Let's say you have four 4-days which give you a total credit of 63.5 hours, and the system only has a few hours to go-what will happen?

 

[crj567]

I'm really gettin tired of the fear being spread.

Dispute resolution language​

o​

​

​

​

This language specifies a coin-toss method for publishing of the lines,
if the Association and the Company cannot mutually agree on the final
schedule.​

o​

​

​

​

If the coin-toss method is used three times during a six month period,​

the dispute is moved to an expedited arbitration.

Trip Construction Language​

o​

​

​

​

Limit placed on the total number of four (4) day trips within a position
to sixty-percent (60%) maximum.​

o​

​

​

​

Trips will not be constructed to exceed four (4) days without the​

consent of the Association.

-Oh-and please explain the "coin toss" thing to all the XJET guys!

-They will LOVE IT!

-I will try not to laugh!

 

[crj567]

5 four days?

This is pappagiorio's wet dream. EVERYBODY at work 20 days a month, low block. LOTS of airport sits AKA airport ready reserve. We dont need any reserves, WE are all reserves.

You ain't kidding-bro!

-XJET guys take heed, this kind of thing really is the kind of stuff our mgmt. would absolutely love to do.

 

[Medeco]

That was a brief summary of how it goes.

Here is how it plays out in depth. You, who are the self appointed expert should know this all by heart.
Since you are the expert, fill us all in on how it plays out.
I thought we were not going to "mud sling"? I pray you dont get into the ALPA office in an official capacity.

c. Mutual Agreement on bid run solutions
9 (1) The Association and the Company will mutually agree on the bid
10 run solution(s) to be published as the final schedule.
11
12 (2) If a dispute should arise regarding the bid run solution(s) to be
13 published as the final schedule, the resolution of the dispute will be
14 resolved by utilizing the bid runs performed by the Company and
15 the bid runs performed by the PWG. The parties will resolve such
16 dispute as provided in paragraph c.(3), below.
17
18 (3) Dispute Resolution – Alternate strike method of bid run solutions:
19 (a) If the dispute cannot be resolved by 1200 ET on the 20​

th of the
20 month, the following procedure will be used:
21 i. From the bid run solutions that have been performed by the
22 Company and the bid run solutions performed by the PWG
23 (minimum of ten (10) runs), the Company will choose five (5)
24 bid runs and the PWG will choose five (5) bid runs.
25 ii. The Company and the Association will flip a coin to
26 determine who will strike first; the winner of the coin toss will
27 have the option to strike first or second. The parties will
28 alternate striking bid solutions until only one (1) bid run
29 remains. The remaining bid run solution will be published as
30 the final schedule for that position.
31 iii. In the event the strike method is used to determine the final
32 schedule the MEC Chairman and the VP of Flight
33 Operations will meet and confer to try and resolve the issue
34 as to why the parties were unable to reach a mutual
35 agreement on the bid run.
36 (b) If this alternate strike method is used more than three (3) times
37 in a six (6) month period or the parties have a dispute in
38 accordance with this PBS LOA, the parties will file the dispute to
39 expedited arbitration by bypassing the provisions for Mediation​

40 in Section 21.D.

i.​

The parties will mutually agree upon the selection of an​

2​

arbitrator. If mutual agreement is not possible, the arbitrator​

3​

will be selected from the list of arbitrators contained in​

4​

Section 21 by alternately striking names until one (1)​

5​

remains.​

6 ii.​

The parties will determine the order of striking by the toss of​

7 ​

a coin. The winner of the coin toss will have the choice of​

8 ​

striking first or second.​

9​

iii. The arbitration will be held at the earliest possible date​

10​

consistent with the arbitrator’s schedule and the parties’​

11​

schedules. In coordination with the arbitrator’s and the​

12​

parties’ schedules, the parties will set a time and date for a​

13​

hearing, which will not be more than ninety (90) days after​

14​

such request for a hearing, unless mutually agreed​

15​

otherwise.​

16​

iv. Fees and expenses of the arbitrator, as well as costs of the​

17​

hearing room and the stenographic report, will be shared​

18​

equally by the parties. Otherwise, the parties will bear their​

19​

respective costs and expenses.​

20​

v. At the discretion of each party, closing arguments may be​

21​

made in lieu of post-hearing briefs.​

22​

vi. The arbitrator’s decision will be issued no later than twenty23​

one (21) days following the close of the record and the​

24​

submission of any brief desired by any party.​

25 vii.​

The arbitrator’s decision will be based on the provisions of​

26​

the Agreement, PBS LOA, and will consider such factors as​

27​

pilot quality of life and the productivity of the Company. The​

28 arbitrator’s decision will be final and binding.

 

[Medeco]

Bottom line is, the Association must agree with the bid run solution.

Why are you assuming they will not continue to do exactly what they did for the Feb. bid run?

Another major factor of the 200, is the fact that Delta has shortened the average stage length. This will continue to make it quite hard to get "nice" pairings.

Ignore the facts if you like.

 

[Nevets]

The big thing is pairing construction. If we could just fix that major issue, I would actually be a fan of the system. It allows a lot of cool stuff, but it also allows the company nearly limitless free reign with building trips as crappy as they can imagine. And they have quite an imagination. I really don't everyone stuck at 10 or 11 days off per month. CT and SH would love nothing better.

While we have momentum on our side, we MUST fix this problem. If we don't we will be stuck flying garbage for 10 years.

We do have pairing construction input already. Our system isn't broke so why does it need fixing?

 

[Medeco]

We do have pairing construction input already. Our system isn't broke so why does it need fixing?

From the pilot perspective it isnt broken.

I realize you dont "need" this job, but that isnt reality for most.

PBS is in place and saving other companies money while XJT is old school.

Keep on dreaming.

 

[OCP]

TWA had the union make the pairings. Why can't we?

 

[crj567]

TWA had the union make the pairings. Why can't we?

Excellent point.

In fact, I was told this was pretty much going to be the case (before the vote.) It is nowhere in the agreement.

-I am tired of Medeco's circular logic. Let's move on.

-We have an opportunity to fix this rag. Pairing construction needs fixing, and we cannot ignore that fact.

-Done.

 

[Medeco]

Excellent point.

In fact, I was told this was pretty much going to be the case (before the vote.) It is nowhere in the agreement.

-I am tired of Medeco's factual logic, because I cannot refute it. Let's move on.

-We have an opportunity to fix this rag. Pairing construction needs fixing, and we cannot ignore that fact.

-Done.

Fixed it for yah!

Enjoy talking to yourself, You are your biggest fan.

 

[johnpeace]

Ask your nearest PBS trainer what will happen when we plug 14 hour 4-days into this thing (the original trips were pretty much that awful)-ask them how many days off you can expect with that eventuality.

At some point there are more block hours than 14 hr four days would support. I can't see it making sense to hire more pilots to do 14 hour 4 days when you could just build 18-20 hr 4 days and cover them with the same pilots.

During block-hour lean months though, 14 hr 4 days is a way they can distribute the smaller amount of block hours around to the same group.

I agree that the agreement needs to be adjusted in our next contract, but you have to remember that they're not screwing the pilots out of spite (I don't think so anyway)...they're looking for efficiencies.

We need to create language in our next contract that addresses pilot productivity and utilization and make sure it doesn't have any instances of phrases like, 'at the company's discretion' or 'if the company feels like it...'.

 

[Snapperhead]

TWA had the union make the pairings. Why can't we?

The union didn't make the pairings at TWA. There was a System Scheduling Committee. There was one pilot assigned to each fleet. That pilot would meet with the company as the pairings were being constructed. One pilot was assigned per fleet (DC-9, MD-80, 717, 757/767, 727) He would suggest what the pilot's would want, ie...DC-9 would want one day trips, two day trips and commutable 4 days; MD80 LAX base would want trips that started late in the day, get home early, and avoid back side of the clock flying; JFK 767 wanted long downtown layovers in a certain station to avoid deadheading; you get the point.
It was a good idea, and it kept good will between the company and the pilots.

 

[Freebrd]

why were the crj200 Feb pairings so crappy the first time?

do ya think management did it on purpose to see how we'd respond,

or maybe they thought they could get away with it,

we blame poppo whatevr his name is but CT is in charge over there.

sure wasn't too smart on their part expecting xjt to like pbs.

no more than 60% 4 days, but a 3 day followed by a 2 day, a dayline or whatever to reach the value will be worse than straight 4 days

reckon we'll see what Mar looks like in what, 10 days

copy dat?

 

[Nevets]

From the pilot perspective it isnt broken.

I realize you dont "need" this job, but that isnt reality for most.

PBS is in place and saving other companies money while XJT is old school.

Keep on dreaming.

It's not that I don't need a job. I'm just ok if I lose a job fighting to make it pay a respectable wage.

And if it's not broken from the pilots perspective, then why does line bidding work so good for SWA and FDX? I'm actually not against PBS but that isn't reality for most.

 

[crj567]

why were the crj200 Feb pairings so crappy the first time?

do ya think management did it on purpose to see how we'd respond,

or maybe they thought they could get away with it,

we blame poppo whatevr his name is but CT is in charge over there.

sure wasn't too smart on their part expecting xjt to like pbs.

no more than 60% 4 days, but a 3 day followed by a 2 day, a dayline or whatever to reach the value will be worse than straight 4 days

reckon we'll see what Mar looks like in what, 10 days

copy dat?

Exactly what worries me! Let Medeco continue to whistle past the graveyard. I sure get the feeling he is getting paid to do so.

 

[777forever]

Having the pilots make the pairings would be a great addition to PBS during JCBA negotiations

 

[Freebrd]

didnt Horizon just get that? building the pairings.