2013 L-CAL System Bid Out

[Flopgut]

No merger would have been quite a ride for the CAL side. This sort of bid twice a year for a 5 thousand pilot group? Wow. Who knows now.

 

[taxicabdriver]

Yeah the cal side got screwed with this merger in my opinion

 

[eaglesview]

No merger would have been quite a ride for the CAL side. This sort of bid twice a year for a 5 thousand pilot group? Wow. Who knows now.

I think CAL would have done what everyother airline including CAL itself has one and that is cycle. As a 98 hire in the left seat you got there at the right time as I did at UAL in 91. We were not smart we were lucky. Hopefully we will all continue to move up.

As for twice a year it will be interesting to see how this is handled moving forward. During times of upward movement United put out bids monthly.

 

[Andy]

This bid dies once SLI is complete. If you're in training prior to SLI completion, you will get that seat. If not, you're still in your current seat.

I was incorrect on this statement. If you are assigned a training date prior to end of SLI, you will get your seat. (TAB award)

Yeah the cal side got screwed with this merger in my opinion

LOL! The CEO and 95% of senior management are ex-Cons so you're getting screwed by the management CAL brought to the table. The same management that went to Tilton looking for a merge when Tilton was about to do the deed with Parker at Airways.

Alex Karras best described your, my, and every other line pilot's importance to this (or any other) airline. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKRma7PDW10

 

[Flopgut]

LOL! The CEO and 95% of senior management are ex-Cons so you're getting screwed by the management CAL brought to the table. The same management that went to Tilton looking for a merge when Tilton was about to do the deed with Parker at Airways.

Only somewhat correct. smisek was put in place because Continental's larry kellner didn't want anything to do with United after he took a good look at the full disclosure. It's starting to look like Larry was right, and that we are not going to get another good CEO for a very long time.

 

[Flopgut]

I think CAL would have done what everyother airline including CAL itself has one and that is cycle. As a 98 hire in the left seat you got there at the right time as I did at UAL in 91. We were not smart we were lucky. Hopefully we will all continue to move up.

As for twice a year it will be interesting to see how this is handled moving forward. During times of upward movement United put out bids monthly.

From my perspective, I think CAL learned things in their two BKs that UAL has not. Now that I spend time in UAL hubs and see the operation up close, I don't see a lot to be enthused about.

And I agree that things cycle. In fact, that's what I'm pointing out in this last bid from the CAL side. This is what the CAL cycle looked like since those BKs, and it's going to be brought to an unfortunate end.

 

[eaglesview]

From my perspective, I think CAL learned things in their two BKs that UAL has not. Now that I spend time in UAL hubs and see the operation up close, I don't see a lot to be enthused about.

And I agree that things cycle. In fact, that's what I'm pointing out in this last bid from the CAL side. This is what the CAL cycle looked like since those BKs, and it's going to be brought to an unfortunate end.

OK you can have your opinion. I'd take ORD over IAH any day. NRT over GUM any day, SFO over EWR any day. So where does this get us ....no where. WE now have all of those hubs so press on. We have the same reaction you are having at CO hubs. I laugh every time I park in EWR or IAH as the first guide man signal is opposite of what I know they want. (outsourced ramp, you get what you pay for) These are just differences in the way we operate that we are not used to....that's it. CO and UA have not stayed in business this long because they were clueless. Both side know the basics.

As for your second paragragh, it's not a cycle till you hit the other end. Just ask the SW fellas.

 

[Flopgut]

OK you can have your opinion. I'd take ORD over IAH any day. NRT over GUM any day, SFO over EWR any day. So where does this get us ....no where. WE now have all of those hubs so press on. We have the same reaction you are having at CO hubs. I laugh every time I park in EWR or IAH as the first guide man signal is opposite of what I know they want. (outsourced ramp, you get what you pay for) These are just differences in the way we operate that we are not used to....that's it. CO and UA have not stayed in business this long because they were clueless. Both side know the basics.

As for your second paragragh, it's not a cycle till you hit the other end. Just ask the SW fellas.

I know, I know. You are right, and I would do good to adapt that same perspective. I'm just reading this bid and I realize this is it for CAL pilots. I know L-UAL guys are looking forward to bidding these positions with whatever new seniority they get in SLI. My fellow CAL pilots are looking forward to....? What? What did United bring to the party? You'd take ORD over IAH?! Really? Out of IAH I go all over South America and the Caribbean , and it's a blast. I did ORD trips last week and I overnighted in BUF and BDL. It sucked... GUM does the island hopper. I've heard that base is the best flying you'll ever do. Is NRT even a base? SFO and EWR might be a close comparison... Idk. The good stuff UAL did bring isn't going to have much for openings. There's all sorts of new stuff in this merger, IF you are L-UAL. There is no future meaningful career expectation that a CAL pilot would not have had, or had sooner, absent this merger. Not that I can see. Can you show me where I'm wrong?

 

[densoo]

There's all sorts of new stuff in this merger, IF you are L-UAL. There is no future meaningful career expectation that a CAL pilot would not have had, or had sooner, absent this merger.

Exactly. Please tell me you're on the SLI committee.

 

[Andy]

Only somewhat correct. smisek was put in place because Continental's larry kellner didn't want anything to do with United after he took a good look at the full disclosure. It's starting to look like Larry was right, and that we are not going to get another good CEO for a very long time.

ROTFLMAO! That's a lot of cognitive dissonance going on there. Smisek was hand picked by Gordo and joined CAL in 1995; he's been at Continental longer than you!

As far as the merger goes, Kellner pretty much made that decision when he opted to join the Star Alliance when Continental got frozen out of SkyTeam after the Delta/Northwest merger. Continental was no longer needed; the combined Delta airlines' route structure didn't have any huge gaps that Continental filled. I wrote about that in 2008:

That didn't last long. Market cap = price/share x shares outstanding. Using today's closing prices:
CAL= $16.04 x 98.00M = $1.57B
UAUA = $13.95 x 118.99M = $1.66B

Does this mean that, as of today, UAUA is back in the driver's seat? Market cap is not a measure of who's in charge of a merger.

You're also ignoring the fact that due to the DAL/NWA merger, CAL is going to be effectively frozen out of SkyTeam. In order for them to continue to expand internationally, they need to join the Star Alliance or One World.
Ask Kellner or any of the rest of CAL senior management how much they're concerned over their future in SkyTeam.

The question was when United was ready to merge; Tilton lined up two suitors to choose from; Continental and USAirways. Now that USAirways is by itself and will get frozen out of the Star Alliance (that should happen within the next couple of years), Parker's scrambling for a partner in AMR because it's the only major alliance remaining that will take USAirways after their departure from Star.

By the way, it's funny how your opinion's changed since 2008:

Andy and Mountain Freak have the situation correctly characterized if you ask this CAL pilot. We've got scabs, they've got scabs. We've got a few strikers left and so do they. The rest of us need to keep our heads on straight and this would be a good deal for all of us. However, I think UAL is going to entertain a USAir deal first. JMHO. That ain't going to be good for CAL.

Quasi-legitimate Gordon Bethune stated CAL/UAL was a "checkmate". I'm inclined to believe him on that. I'm afraid that re-regulation and the currently permissive political climate are pressuring our greed wracked leaders into whatever deal they can make to get themselves paid. (of course oil as well) Hence UAL/LCC. If we want govt to step in [re-reg] we need our union leader to start moving that direction. Prater needs to start talking fuel price rationing for airlines and to also point out that the FAA can't oversee airlines the size they are now, and that they are less equal to the task when airlines are larger. (I personally don't believe that, but it's a good talking point) Here's what I think is going to happen after the May ALPA Exec Board meeting: Prater changes his tune or he's out. JMHO.

Flopgut, I'm also confused by your statement that nothing good has happened for Continental pilots. Every time I hear an ex-Con say that, I ask if he's staying at better hotels since the merge. 'Yes'. Do I need to point out a myriad of other examples that you're also ignoring? Take two steps back and do an unbiased assessment of now vs three years ago.

Does LUAL have warts? Sure. So does LCAL; don't try to shrug them off as beauty marks.

 

[Flopgut]

By the way, it's funny how your opinion's changed since 2008:

Flopgut, I'm also confused by your statement that nothing good has happened for Continental pilots. Every time I hear an ex-Con say that, I ask if he's staying at better hotels since the merge. 'Yes'. Do I need to point out a myriad of other examples that you're also ignoring? Take two steps back and do an unbiased assessment of now vs three years ago.

I had a different impression of UAL back then. Seen it up close now and it looks a lot different. If you can point out a few more positives, then please do. I would love to be shown I'm wrong. I'd rather not argue. The reality for CAL pilots is this: SLI doesn't matter. We could do reasonably well and we are still going to see our opportunities to fly the Pacific and South America, or anything like that, diminish.

I realize I'm talking to a guy who was furloughed and there are worse things than doing boring flying. I beg your pardon.

 

[taxicabdriver]

I have not seen any better hotels since this merger and I don't like the 14 hr rule requiring a downtown hotel either, much rather it stay the same... I don't want to be spending an hour each way of my 15 hr layover in a van

 

[Andy]

I had a different impression of UAL back then. Seen it up close now and it looks a lot different. If you can point out a few more positives, then please do. I would love to be shown I'm wrong. I'd rather not argue. The reality for CAL pilots is this: SLI doesn't matter. We could do reasonably well and we are still going to see our opportunities to fly the Pacific and South America, or anything like that, diminish.

I realize I'm talking to a guy who was furloughed and there are worse things than doing boring flying. I beg your pardon.

For one, the reality of this business is that we're in a consolidation phase. Once it's completed, smaller carriers will disappear one by one - not by merging but through chap 7. CAL had a small enough footprint that it would be an endangered species within the decade. Parker knows that's the fate of USAirways if he doesn't merge.

And I suppose all of the pilots who are now based out of LAX and DEN have seen no benefits of the merge? I've flown with a couple that are VERY HAPPY to no longer have to commute.

I have not seen any better hotels since this merger and I don't like the 14 hr rule requiring a downtown hotel either, much rather it stay the same... I don't want to be spending an hour each way of my 15 hr layover in a van

There are always a few outliers who can find a cloud in every silver lining. You're one of those rare Best Western/Holiday Inn Express/Fairfield Inn fans.

 

[Flopgut]

And I suppose all of the pilots who are now based out of LAX and DEN have seen no benefits of the merge? I've flown with a couple that are VERY HAPPY to no longer have to commute.

I don't think you can credit LAX to the merger. DEN? Yeah maybe. Despite the move to consolidate, CAL was still a very organic situation. This merger is as though a Whole Foods got built on a superfund cleanup site.

I can tell you this: CAL had/has a lot of momentum and some great flying. Bids like this current one, were part of our recent past and our immediate future. You tell me what you think the next bid is going to look like? IMO any decent L-UAL BES isn't going to have a single vacancy for years.

 

[chppr5]

I don't think you can credit LAX to the merger. DEN? Yeah maybe. Despite the move to consolidate, CAL was still a very organic situation. This merger is as though a Whole Foods got built on a superfund cleanup site.

I can tell you this: CAL had/has a lot of momentum and some great flying. Bids like this current one, were part of our recent past and our immediate future. You tell me what you think the next bid is going to look like? IMO any decent L-UAL BES isn't going to have a single vacancy for years.

You seem to forget the main reasons for these bids. What were the staffing needs at s-CAL with the JCBA 2012?(trip rigs, duty rigs, 5 hr/min cal/day) What about staffing needs for FAR 117? How many more airframes does s-CAL have now than when the merger was announced? Don't equate growth with bids. With NO work rules s-CAL was under staffed by 500+ with s-UAL C2003 work rules. Now add in 1:4 (eventually 1:3.5), 5MD, 90 Hr cap, 2:1. JCBA staffing needs are in the 800 range once fully implemented, so hopefully we will both benefit from the bids soon.

 

[Flyforyou]

FWIW, I talked to the 8-Ball(most jr guy on property) yesterday and he's out of the '08 pool of guys who had class dates when CAL/UAL stopped hiring. Somebody from HR said last week they have unfilled slots in the late Feb class right now. Good luck to everyone.

 

[igneousy2]

I have not seen any better hotels since this merger and I don't like the 14 hr rule requiring a downtown hotel either, much rather it stay the same... I don't want to be spending an hour each way of my 15 hr layover in a van

So when you get a 24 hour layover, where do you want the hotel to be? Are you saying you NEVER want to be downtown if it's a long drive, or that you want to adjust the time that triggers a downtown hotel?

 

[taxicabdriver]

Yes, I like the trigger where it is now... I think it's 18 or maybe 20 hrs, but I really never do long layovers, I'd rather have my time at home

 

[Scrapdog]

Yes, I like the trigger where it is now... I think it's 18 or maybe 20 hrs, but I really never do long layovers, I'd rather have my time at home

+1.

Give me a good gym and good, healthy food. I could care less if I'm right by the biggest shopping mall in the county.

 

[eaglesview]

+1.

Give me a good gym and good, healthy food. I could care less if I'm right by the biggest shopping mall in the county.

That wouldn't qualify as downtown. I would have rather seen 16 as the trigger but we could nit pick all day, doesn't do any good.