2 -v- 1 (close call with a Viper)

[tumbleweed]

Yes...Be afraid...be very afraid. This thread is almost as entertaining as the last time it ran. Almost an exact repeat if I remember correctly. SOS.

You got that right! It is like riding a merry-go-round with Ann Coulter and Ariana Huffington talking politics...all transmit and no receive.

Stay safe!

 

[Deuce130]

Maybe the military should shut down all the MOA's and turn them into restricted areas?

Or how about we learn how to get along with each other and respect the intent of a certain type of airspace?

Its unfortunate that the pure civilians on here cannot see the dangers posed by entering an active MOA just because "I CAN". Those dangers are for everyone involved.

Having seen both sides of the argument and having seen what can go on inside a MOA, I choose to stay out.

I think the vast majority of civ guys here DO recognize the dangers posed by entering a MOA. The majority of the pushback seems to be due to the arrogance of many of the mil guys on here about the situation. There is a dedicated effort by some to refuse to admit any wrongdoing by on the part of the Viper guy. If he was completely innocent in the affair, there would have been no mention of ANY reprimand, regardless of how severe or minor it was. As I mentioned before, mil pilots are supposed to be pros, GA pilots are not. Nowhere in 11-214 does it say to knock it off for unplanned traffic in the area, then escort that traffic out of the area. Frankly, it was none of the F-16s pilots' business what the GA traffic was doing there - his only concern should've been to avoid it and then resume training when able to. Instead, he chose a course of action that left something to be desired. It's odd how few people will admit this. It's also odd to watch Rez own people left and right on this thread - he's usually WAY off base on most issues.

I also hear about tax dollars being wasted. Personally, I've never mentioned tax dollars in a debrief, or seriously thought one thing about it. If anyone ever does, then their priorities are jacked.

I'd also recommend the book "Darker Shades of Blue" for anyone interested.

 

[CrewDawg]

I think the squadron commander found the pilot in the squadron bar, "Hey lieutenant, we told public affairs that you got reprimanded for that PA mess the other day, so, umm, you're reprimanded. And next time you do that you should turn off your mode 3 like I do. Here, have another beer. Remember, tell anybody that asks that you've been reprimanded."

LOL.....if you only knew how true that could be! As far as the radio up north, I'll bet the guy is still instructing out at Luke.

So he never got within 600 feet, seems like he used judgment. He was 100 feet farther away than what the AF considers "well clear." If you enter a MOA you should know that there is a possibility of an encounter with an AF aircraft. Most likely you will never know, sometimes you will.

Now if this had happened outside of the MOA and not an actual intercept, then that would be a different story. Then I would question the pilots judgment.

What you consider "aggressive" may be rather benign to military pilot. Heck I considered pattern work in the T-37 aggressive, when I first got to pilot training. I even remember when I thought 45-60 degrees of bank was aggressive in a C-172. It's all a matter of perspective.

But for this guy to think an F-16 was 10 feet off his wing when it never came within 600 feet, that's ridiculous. I'm a bad judge at distances but holy crap I can't believe anyone is that bad.

As far as the EGO comments, you guys have been watching way to many movies. Talk about a preconceived misconception. Air Force pilots are some of the most professional and safety oriented pilots I have ever worked with. I can assure you that "hot dogging" is crushed pretty quickly, in the military.

Daytonaflyer - If there were designated "civilian operating areas" we would fly around them if they were active. As part of our briefing we check the ORM and if the risk is to much we reevaluate our plan. Heck we even have "no fly" areas on our low levels since people on the ground complain about the noise over head. When we transition to and from the MOA we are doing the same thing you are.....droning along straight and level. We don't do any "aggressive" maneuvering outside of specified airspace. Check that, just the way we turn in tactical would be considered aggressive by you......so we don't do any "unnecessary maneuvering," outside of the MOA.

 

[ExAF]

Waste is Waste

I also hear about tax dollars being wasted. Personally, I've never mentioned tax dollars in a debrief, or seriously thought one thing about it. If anyone ever does, then their priorities are jacked.

Neither did I, but I do remember many times talking about wasting time/fuel (whether caused by a civ transiting MOA or any other cause internal or external to the flight) which are synonymous in the fighter world to taxpayer dollars. On a typical 1.3 mission, it may take .3 to get to the area and .3 to recover. That leaves .7 to accomplish the meat of the mission. If I have to "knock it off" for as little as 10 or 15 minutes to find the doosh bag transiting the MOA and sterilize my mission to accommodate said doosh bag, it has a detrimental effect on accomplishing the mission du jour. Hence the waste of taxpayer dollars (time/gas). It becomes a bigger deal when your mission is 1.3 vs 3.1 (or greater)!

 

[Deuce130]

Neither did I, but I do remember many times talking about wasting time/fuel (whether caused by a civ transiting MOA or any other cause internal or external to the flight) which are synonymous in the fighter world to taxpayer dollars. On a typical 1.3 mission, it may take .3 to get to the area and .3 to recover. That leaves .7 to accomplish the meat of the mission. If I have to "knock it off" for as little as 10 or 15 minutes to find the doosh bag transiting the MOA and sterilize my mission to accommodate said doosh bag, it has a detrimental effect on accomplishing the mission du jour. Hence the waste of taxpayer dollars (time/gas). It becomes a bigger deal when your mission is 1.3 vs 3.1 (or greater)!

I certainly understand the idea of wasted gas equals wasted time, and I agree. The same principle applies whether you're flying fighters, heavies, helos, or driving tanks. The thought of wasted dollars, however, never entered my mind.

 

[Mamma]

I'd also recommend the book "Darker Shades of Blue" for anyone interested.

I recommend "I hope they serve beer in hell" by Tucker Max. Much better read.

 

[Deuce130]

I recommend "I hope they serve beer in hell" by Tucker Max. Much better read.

I'm sure it is....but the two books have nothing to do with each other. Odd post.

 

[Mamma]

I'm sure it is....but the two books have nothing to do with each other. Odd post.

I know they have nothing to do with one another. Just like the book you recommended probably has nothing to do with this situation. You are making a big insinuation for somebody not in the know, not there, or anyway connected to the incident. Aside of all that, your post was well written and actually activated a few neurons in my brain. But I still recommend my book! Just read it again this last weekend!

 

[414Flyer]

the Tucker Max book is rather funny, read that about a month ago. However in regards to the other book, Kern probably has valid points, but his viewpoint regarding the aerial firefighting industry, and his role in helping try to dismantle it, has not exactly earned any accolades from anyone in fire.

 

[Bjammin]

If a civilian aircraft wants to go through a MOA why doesn't the PIC call and the controlling agency and let everyone know you are coming? By doing so it would save time, gas, and possibly a mishap.

No, you are not required to, but it would make everyone more safe in a section of airspace that obviously has some disagreements surrounding it.

If you call you will either be told, "That MOA is not being used today.", "We will try to move to another MOA or brief your penetration to the flight lead using the MOA.", or "We stongly recommend you stay clear due to a multi-plane excersize going on."

It will make everyone more aware of your aircraft and should give you a warm, fuzzy as well.

As a Navy Commander and a multi-plane flight lead myself I don't think it is safe for a VFR aircraft to go blindly though a MOA, but my opinion doesn't seem to matter much when this topic comes up.

I will be happy to PM the Kingsville, TX Wing Duty Officer number to anyone that is going through the Kings 1, 2, 3, or 4 MOA.