1984 or 2004? Where are we headed?

[ifly4food]

To all who have disagreed with my statements: I am not trying to convince you I am right as I realize this is impossible.

To all who agreed with me: Thank you.

To all who have yet to make an opinion: you are the ones I am speaking to.

1. Big brother.
I am no conspiracy theorist, but look around you. Now compare how much we are watched by the government today compared to 50 years ago. Technological advances have made this possible and it is fed by post 9/11/01 hysteria and parenoia.
I fail to see how anyone can deny this is a concern.

2. The Thought Police (TSA)
What differentiates the TSA from the FBI or any other governmental police force is the lack of Due Process.
If you run afoul of the TSA there are no trials. No proceedings are public. There are no real appeals. This is all in the name of "national security".
Now, the TSA can take even your pilot license away because a pinhead buereauocrat at a checkpoint doesn't like your attitude and decides to get even by declaring you a "security risk".
Watch for this power to expand into loss of driver's licences, travel privilleges, passports, etc. in the future.
At least the FBI must indict you of something and hold a trial before you are penalized.

3. War.
I was speaking of war in general. After years of relative peace we have become a nation bent on waging global war. I am no hippie, but I don't feel we should be waging war in Iraq or N. Korea.
I contend it is due to American ego and a need to show power. It also is intended to focus the American people on a patriotic cause so that we don't question the actions of our government.

However, to those of you who spoke so strongly in support of war with Iraq...
Why is Iraq, more of a threat then N. Korea?
We have shown NO EVIDENCE that Iraq posesses weapons of mass destruction. N. Korea is known to posess enough nuclear material to assemble several warheads in short order and has said they plan to make more. They also posess the missles to attack Japan, China, S. Korea and other neighbors.
Iraq is closely controlled by sanctions and can export nothing except the oil they are allowed to sell. N. Korea is the worlds largest exporter of military technology with this going to 21% of its GDP. It has been caught selling ballistic missiles. These weapons go to the highest bidder and Al Qaida has the cash.
Saddam Hussein is an impotent dictator due to his being disarmed and cash strapped. While he makes great threats, his power is limited to hurting his own people. Kim Jung Il has threatened to wage war on the Korean peninsula and all of his neighbors if provoked by military action or even sanctions. He possesses the weapons, forces, and means to carry out this threat. He also has nothing to lose by doing so.
Saddam Hussein threatened to kill Bush senior. Kim Jung Il has threatened to kill everyone within range of his missles.
It's more than coincidence that Iraq controls one of the world's largest deposits of crude oil. N. Korea has no resources the US is interested in.

So again, I ask, if not for oil and pride, why is Iraq a larger threat to the world than N. Korea?

 

[flywithastick]

So again, I ask, if not for oil and pride, why is Iraq a larger threat to the world than N. Korea?

Where does this stuff about Iraq and it's big influence/impact on energy come from?! With Iraq essentially out of the Western oil picture, (taking out the taxes & correcting for inflation) gasoline prices right now are as low as they've ever been. Where's the big incentive to provide more supply at the cost of a major world conflict, lives of many people and world scrutiny? I don't see it.

Maybe Bush and his cronies just want the oil for themselves. They're going to seize it and put all the land and minerals in their name! No one will notice. No one noticed in '91 when GHWB seized Kuwaits assets. What a deal!!

Why are France, Germany & Russia so opposed to enforcing the UN resolutions? Morality? Nope - money!! They're the one's who do have investment in Iraq. Both weapons and oil production equipment. Who do you think sold them the uranium centrifuges? Germany! Who does Iraq owe big $$ to for weapons and oil production equipment? Russia! Can't link France in here right now - they're just elitist idiots.

 

[TXCAP4228]

To all who have disagreed with my statements: I am not trying to convince you I am right as I realize this is impossible....To all who have yet to make an opinion: you are the ones I am speaking to.

In that case I hope you won't mind if I provide a counter point to those who have not yet made up their mind.

1. Big brother.
I am no conspiracy theorist, but look around you. Now compare how much we are watched by the government today compared to 50 years ago. Technological advances have made this possible and it is fed by post 9/11/01 hysteria and parenoia.
I fail to see how anyone can deny this is a concern.

You are not a conspiracy theorist, but....

Come one. My parking garage has surveilace cameras, my ATM machine has surveilance cameras, the toll booths I drove through to get to work this morning had surveilance cameras, even the 7-11 where I got gas had surveilance cameras. Guess what, no one in the government is putting a "dossier" together on me. No one in the government is infringing on my rights or invading my privacy. I think you are being a little dramatic.

2. The Thought Police (TSA)
What differentiates the TSA from the FBI or any other governmental police force is the lack of Due Process.
If you run afoul of the TSA there are no trials. No proceedings are public. There are no real appeals. This is all in the name of "national security".
Now, the TSA can take even your pilot license away because a pinhead buereauocrat at a checkpoint doesn't like your attitude and decides to get even by declaring you a "security risk".
Watch for this power to expand into loss of driver's licences, travel privilleges, passports, etc. in the future.
At least the FBI must indict you of something and hold a trial before you are penalized.

Again, you're being a little too dramatic IMHO. If you read the statement on denying pilot's certificates, it doesn't say that a security screener can yank it. This is where they research you and decide you may be a terrorist trying to learn how to fly an airplane.

In spite of your being dramtic and exagerating a little, I agree with you that it is unconstitutional to deny due process. I am interested to see how this pans out.

The part about this expanding into travel priveleges and passports and drivers licenses is completely unsubstantiated. If you want people to take that particular statement seriously then please show us any politician or government agency that is even CONSIDERING it. He!!, if you do then I'll start a letter writing ccampaign myself. But otherwise, don't just run around saying the sky is falling.

3. War.
I was speaking of war in general. After years of relative peace we have become a nation bent on waging global war. I am no hippie, but I don't feel we should be waging war in Iraq or N. Korea.
I contend it is due to American ego and a need to show power. It also is intended to focus the American people on a patriotic cause so that we don't question the actions of our government.

1) Do you recall us sending troops to Yugoslavia? or Haiti? Do you recall us shooting missles off at factories in Africa? I don't agree that we have been at relative peace.
2) One of the beauties of America is that you may say anything you want in criticizing the government. You are contending here that America may go to war as a show of ego or power, while I disagree completely. As before, I am prepared to give reasons why I think my position is right. You ought to give reasons why yours is. Just saying so isn't enough to convince your inteded audience (those who have not yet decided).

Why I think my position is right:
A) We DO have evidence from many sources that Iraq has not met its committments to disarm.
B) The president did a pretty good job last night of America's position that we cannot wait for a smoking gun that may be another smoking crater where 3000 Americans were alive just seconds before.
C) It is better to act now and disarm those who would seek to harm us than to wait until they attack us again.
D) The current situation with North Korea is a good example of the prior administration NOT stepping up and taking care of a problem and intead just allowing it to fester. Now, North Korea has possible functioning nuclear weapons with which they are attempting to blackmail us. If we do nothing with Iraq and burry our head in the sand, Iraq will develop into a similar situaiton.
E) If you insist on seeing the evidence of Iraq's noncompliance, be patient. February 5th is not far off.

However, to those of you who spoke so strongly in support of war with Iraq...
Why is Iraq, more of a threat then N. Korea?
We have shown NO EVIDENCE that Iraq posesses weapons of mass destruction. N. Korea is known to posess enough nuclear material to assemble several warheads in short order and has said they plan to make more. They also posess the missles to attack Japan, China, S. Korea and other neighbors.

Iraq is more of a threat than North Korea for 2 reasons:
1) Iraq has USED WMD in the past on its own people and also during the Iran/Iraq war.
2) Iraq has ties to terrorist groups. Ari Fleischer has said previously and Bush said in the State of the Union last night that they have evidence linking Iraq to Al Quaeda. If you don't believe that then believe what the media has reported and what Iraq has acknowledged. They have harbored known terrorists recently - Abu Nidal.

Further, we HAVE shown evidence of Iraq's possession of WMD. Iraq admitted to having them. As part of the UN terms for ending hostilities after GulfWar1, Iraq has to demonstrate compliance in disarmement - ie, IRAQ has the burden of proof. The United Nations decided that, not the USA.

Next, you make a pretty good argument that Iraq is not a threat due to being cash strapped. However, we already know that funds from the sale of oil HAVE been diverted to unacceptable uses. Also, we also know that Iraq is hiding weapons caches that we know existed previously. Bush talked about thousands of tons of biological and chemical agents. Cash strapped or not, THAT is a threat.

Finally, now that North Korea has nukes it is sort of hard to invade isn't it? You see what will happen if we let Iraq get into the same situation?

 

[TXCAP4228]

Where does this stuff about Iraq and it's big influence/impact on energy come from?! With Iraq essentially out of the Western oil picture, (taking out the taxes & correcting for inflation) gasoline prices right now are as low as they've ever been. Where's the big incentive to provide more supply at the cost of a major world conflict, lives of many people and world scrutiny? I don't see it.

Maybe Bush and his cronies just want the oil for themselves. They're going to seize it and put all the land and minerals in their name! No one will notice. No one noticed in '91 when GHWB seized Kuwaits assets. What a deal!!

Why are France, Germany & Russia so opposed to enforcing the UN resolutions? Morality? Nope - money!! They're the one's who do have investment in Iraq. Both weapons and oil production equipment. Who do you think sold them the uranium centrifuges? Germany! Who does Iraq owe big $$ to for weapons and oil production equipment? Russia! Can't link France in here right now - they're just elitist idiots.

Well said, Fly. I'll add this about France: the French have sent commercial flights into Bagdahd in violation of the UN sanctions. Don't know what the purpose was but I remember this being reported in the press.

 

[flywithastick]

Re: TSA

Ifly4food has foresight. What happens now is not the problem. Once it starts, it's going to be tough to stop it.

I totally agree with the comments about Big Brother and infringements on our privacy and personal liberty. Can't say I agree with Ifly4food's thoughts on Bush's intentions in Iraq though.

Oh yeah, and the FBI HAS abused their powers in the past. Take a look at the 1960s...

60's?!?! How about the dozens of women and children gassed, burned and shot at Waco in 1993?!

http://www.rickross.com/graphics/waco_burning.jpg

Then there's Ruby Ridge in '92... Randy Weaver's 14 yr old son was fatally shot in the back by US Marshalls and wife was fatally shot in the neck while holding her baby by an FBI sniper.

http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/enforce/rubyridge/

Yea, I'd say the FBI has abused it's powers!