1984 or 2004? Where are we headed?

[ifly4food]

It's very scary how we inch closer every day to the Orwellian prophecy:

1. "TIPPS" program. (Congress just dealt it a setback yesterday, but the NSA still is going forward with it).
Make a centralized database of information gleaned from surveliance videos (ATMs, traffic cams, security cams) and link it with electronic commerce like internet sales and credit card transactions. Merge this with monitoring of the Internet. This will make up a massive monitoring program, run by the government, to monitor Americans for "terrorist activity". This is in the name of national security, of course.
Big Brother is watching.

2. The TSA.
This is the first time in American history that we have had a police force operated by the Federal government who has the authority to oversee every aspect of our daily lives and can act with unchecked power as they report to no one. Merely being suspicious of something constitutes a crime.
Think it's just security checkpoints? Think again. The TSA now reviews flight plans, monitors highway and rail travel, checks airline databases, and apparently has the power to prosecute without a trial. All this for national security.
The Thought Police are coming.

3. War.
Our esteemed president has decided that we need a war and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. This is purely to sustain his own ego. If this continues and we attack Iraq or N. Korea without provocation or cooperation we are headed to World War III.
It's no secret that our economy is suffering. A war is the best way to rally a nation's people to work harder. It also takes people's attention away from WHY an economy is suffering and gives the nation a tool to use against anyone who dissents (you're unpatriotic you must be a terrorist. See #2).
A war that never ends used to force the people into productivity.

Perhaps Orwell should have named his book 2004. He was only off by 20 years.

 

[chawbein]

I was with you until #3. That's pretty silly.

Otherwise, get out your Victory Gin and Victory Smokes.

 

[FL000]

Our esteemed president has decided that we need a war and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. This is purely to sustain his own ego.

And I thought "no blood for oil" was a silly rebuttal to the current war drums. Care to substantiate that statement (the second part)?

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Big Brother SSN

Unfortunately, we are here as far as the Orwellian society is concerned. I use the SSN as a prime example. It is requested for all kinds of things. College ID, car insurance, cable TV services, etc. In Florida, they won't sell car insurance unless you provide.
Another example, the college I graduated from still sends me literature to my correct address although I have moved several times and never have given them a dime or any address updates. My SSN was my college ID number. Speculate that's how they're able to track me.

The weird one is how the airlines can follow me regarding frequent flyer literature. I never sent NWA, UAL, USA, DAL, etc. any address updates yet I get all this stuff with my new/correct address.

Your debit and/or credit card is basically your disguised SSN - plus it leaves a great trail of your purchases. If you used your SSN to get cell phone services that leaves a great trail as well.
The SSN is a great way for commerce and government to track you. Question is why? They want to track you but all their tracking is done in stealth. I use cash as much as I can. Speculate cash will be outlawed some day all in the name of peace, safety, and security.

 

[flywithastick]

3. War.
Our esteemed president has decided that we need a war and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. This is purely to sustain his own ego.

Do you really believe this?! You're seriously loosing credibility with statements like this one.

But I do agree that Orwell's predictions are already here and growing in magnitude. With the "New World Order" efforts of the Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs, United Nations, etc., our national soverignty and personal liberty are being chipped away at an alarming rate.

Regarding the use of cash, I agree with the comments above. The first step in tracking cash usage has already come and gone. Why do you think the bills have been changed over the last decade or so? To prevent counterfeiting?! Yea, right! To facilitate tracking cash usage - either for commercial or federal purposes. Another "excuse" we'll hear about the cash tracking or elimination efforts will be to "stop drug trafficking".

Future - Once they get us all on credit, debit or other electronic systems, then they'll have us by the nuts. Buy or say anything non-PC, and you may well get retroactive punnishment in the future. Presently - PC has already stretched into jail time for public speaking - it'll be to the Internet soon. Retroactive punnishment occurs today to corporations and persons who disposed of wastes legally in decades past, but in many cases are declared Superfund sites today.

Future - Buy something that is deemed unhealthy (candy bar, beer, cigarettes), you'll be kicked into a higher tax bracket due to your burden on the federal health care system. Present - Legislators are currently pushing for federal laws to limit portion size and to tax "unhealthy" food.

Future - go to a doctor outside the new federal heath system, and you'll get a $10,000 fine assessed immediately to your federally controlled savings acct. Present - The supreme b!tch, Hilary Clinton, pushed hard for a federal takeover of the health care system about 10 years ago. They don't quit... they just go after their goals from another angle and will be back. The feds already monitor transactions over $10,000 in the name of catching "drug kingpins". BTW, have the feds executed any "drug kingpins" with that new law they enacted about 10 -15 yrs ago?! Didn't think so...

It's not a conspiracy theory. It's happening and no one seems to give a d@mn.

 

[mar]

Bush's ego

Ifly4food could've chosen a better word, I agree.

But I also agree that Bush is motivated by, partly, selfish reasons:

Facts:

--Hussein tried to have Bush Sr. killed.

--Bush Jr has said about Hussein, "He tried to kill my dad."

--The Bush camp is eager (like children on Christmas Eve) to repeat Persian Gulf I.

Opinion:

--Hussein is a dead man no matter the collateral damage.

 

[flywithastick]

Re: Bush's ego

--Bush Jr has said about Hussein, "He tried to kill my dad."

I saw him make that comment. It suprised me. would be awfully small of "W" to want to go to war for that reason alone, given that his dad is still alive. Possible, but not what I'd expect for what appears to be a guy with a fair amount of character.

Besides, if it were me and I wanted to get revenge - I'd use assasins or precision cruise missle/bomb hit... Reagan seemed to have received Ghadaffi's attention with a precision "personal" hit.

--The Bush camp is eager (like children on Christmas Eve) to repeat Persian Gulf I.

Possibly - but I just don't see it like they're blood thirsty. There have to be lots of other things people in power can do to "get off". Like BJs in the oval office, embezzling money, taking bribes, pushing special interest legislation to set yourself up as a lobbyist or other big $$ player in a few years. just my opinion.

--Hussein is a dead man no matter the collateral damage.

Agreed. Whatever the reasons, it appears there's plenty of resolve to carry this through.

 

[TXCAP4228]

You're a pretty smart guy and I enjoy your posts. I just couldn't let this one go.

It's very scary how we inch closer every day to the Orwellian prophecy:

1. "TIPPS" program. (Congress just dealt it a setback yesterday, but the NSA still is going forward with it).
Make a centralized database of information gleaned from surveliance videos (ATMs, traffic cams, security cams) and link it with electronic commerce like internet sales and credit card transactions. Merge this with monitoring of the Internet. This will make up a massive monitoring program, run by the government, to monitor Americans for "terrorist activity". This is in the name of national security, of course.
Big Brother is watching.

I think you're being a little mellodramatic.

Originally posted by ifly4food
2. The TSA.
This is the first time in American history that we have had a police force operated by the Federal government who has the authority to oversee every aspect of our daily lives and can act with unchecked power as they report to no one. Merely being suspicious of something constitutes a crime.
Think it's just security checkpoints? Think again. The TSA now reviews flight plans, monitors highway and rail travel, checks airline databases, and apparently has the power to prosecute without a trial. All this for national security.
The Thought Police are coming.

1) The TSA is not unchecked. The department of homeland security is a Cabinet level position and has congressional oversight. What you said is demonstrably wrong.
2) This is not the first "national" police force. People said the same thing about the FBI and lo and behold we're not having our rights violated left and right by them.
3) The TSA is an mnore efficient gathering of people who have been serving and protecting America foir a long time now. Someone finally had the bright idea of bringing it all under one roof - most call it a more efficient use of taxpayer dollars.
4) Are you suggesting that no one should monitor highway and rail travel? Are you suggesting that no one reviews flight plans now? Whatever. Of course they should and of course they do.
5) Finally you say that they will have the authority to prosecute without trial. You will have to provide some substantiation of this claim - I have never seen this anywhere. The Constitution protects us from this.

Originally posted by ifly4food
3. War.
Our esteemed president has decided that we need a war and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. This is purely to sustain his own ego. If this continues and we attack Iraq or N. Korea without provocation or cooperation we are headed to World War III.
It's no secret that our economy is suffering. A war is the best way to rally a nation's people to work harder. It also takes people's attention away from WHY an economy is suffering and gives the nation a tool to use against anyone who dissents (you're unpatriotic you must be a terrorist. See #2).
A war that never ends used to force the people into productivity.
Perhaps Orwell should have named his book 2004. He was only off by 20 years.

Now you're going off the deep end.
1) If it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks then why did we go to the UN? You're premise is shown to be wrong from this alone.
2) We have a number of allies that side with us.
3) Do you agree that Sadaam has not lived up to his obligations? We had the moral and legal authority to act decisively when Sadaam kicked out the inspectors in 98. We have every bit as much room now.
4) The economy continues to suffer largely because of doubt about the war. Here again one of your basic premises is shows to be demonstrably false.
5) You think that the purpose of this war is to distract from the economy? What makes you say that?
6) No one calls a dissenter a terrorist or unpatriotic. No one on this board has, no one in the media has, President Bush certainly has not. You are over reaching yet again. Don't get so tied up in your anti war rhetoric that you will accuse your oposition of squelching dissent. For crying out loud, look at all the dissent going on!


You have no credibility on this subject.

 

[saabtrash]

No it's not 1984 or 2004, it's 2003. You sound like a liberal immigrant with a green card.

 

[navigator72]

The real terrorist

Who is the real terrorist?
Bush or Hussein?
The world sucks!

 

[FL000]

I wish I had time to put in quotes all the ridiculous statments in this thread. Y'all are hopeless. How soon we forget.

 

[PilotV]

I agree.... Too many times do people forget about what has caused us to come to this point. Many people seem to get too caught up in the 'Now' and either forget or refuse to remember the history of our current events and situation.

People like to think it is only about one singular thing, they get completely wrapped up in that one topic and allow themselves to get infuriated because of it:
- Bush hates Saddam
- U.S. wants oil
- Retribution
- Economic stimulus
- Re-election fodder


The fact is, none of us know ALL of the details. We go off chanting in our parades and sit-ins, yet only knowing one little part of the truth. I am all for free speech and I respect those that exercise that right. What I don't respect are the fools in search of a cause (or march). I'm not trying to wave a flag in your face or call anyone unpatriotic, just think about what your saying before you say it.

Does Bush hate Saddam? Probably.
Does the U.S. want better oil rights? Probably.
Does the U.S. seek retribution? Most likely.
Does the U.S. need some economic stimulus? Absolutely!
Is Bush looking to pad his re-election portfolio? Who knows!

Point is, anyone that feels that they can answer any of these questions with an absolutely definitive answer is kidding themselves!

Allow me to draw a poor analogy.... would you expect a student pilot to do well in an ATP oral? NO! They just don't have all the information to do it. Difference is....they know it.

Remember, your passengers rely on you to make the right decision when it comes to flying because that's what you were trained for. Would you want a passenger to come up to the flight deck and tell you how to do your job or what decision you should make regarding your fuel management? Of course not, and why not? Because they don't know all the facts.

The general public gets a shred of information and they run with it till they mutate it into something it never was. Then they get mad about it.

So, let's stop all this specualtion and finger pointing. If you have an opinion, state it as such. Don't misconstrue facts to form an unstable soap box for you to stand on.

My opinion:

We need to remember one thing. We're all working together here...and yes, I mean as a nation. We're all going to have to live together here for our years to come and we need to make the best of this place. It's a great country...all of us think that...if you didn't, you wouldn't be here. I think the powers that be are simply doing what they think is best in order to keep it a great country.


Just my humble opinion....

 

[tarp]

Ifly:

Couldn't agree with you more. Some folks need to buy Mr. Orwell's book and do some reading instead of listening to the "newspeak" coming out of the TV sets. We have the greatest country and the best document in the world that allows for "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". We need to question authority and go back to very simple rules.

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

"This is the first time in American history that we have had a police force operated by the Federal government who has the authority to oversee every aspect of our daily lives and can act with unchecked power as they report to no one"

The TSA doesn't oversee any of my daily life. I don't give a crap if they review my flight plan and I don't give a crap if they watch me drive my car down the highway. I have only flown once on an airline since they have been around and they were pleasant and painless.

Like someone else said, it is simply amazing how quickly we forget. In the months after 11 September, it was hard for me to go to lunch off base in uniform without someone paying my check for me. Because I was a "defender of freedom". It didn't take long for the PA phone lines to go from calls of appreciation and support to noise complaints. Americans blame the Federal government for the events of 11 September but when the government tries to prevent a similar tragedy, people like ifly4food are crying conspiracy. Make up your minds!! Do you want a watchdog or do you want airplanes crashing into buildings? I'll take the watchdog.

And as far the prospect of war, ifly4food, YGTBSM!!!! You have no idea what this war is about. How many times has Iraq violated the cease fire agreement in the last 12 years? How many UAV's have they shot down in the portions of airspace in Iraq that are essentially ours as a part of the agreement ending the Gulf War? How many times have American and British aircraft been fired upon in the last 12 years enforcing the no-fly zones? How much oil has Saddam smuggled out of his country? How much of those profits were used to better the lives of Iraqi's? How much is our military being battered by having to constantly monitor him? If we left, how long would it take for him to try and take Kuwait again and keep marching on into Saudi Arabia? What happens to people in Iraq that publicly speak out against Saddam?

I don't know the answers to all of the those questions and I could keep asking more until this board wouldn't let me type anymore. I guarantee you that our President has a very good handle on the answers to every one of those questions and a whole lot more dealing with Saddam. So stick to flying airplanes and stop making up for your ignorance by simply pointing fingers. The reason you don't know a lot is because it is in this nations best interest for you not to know. You can choose to berate elected officials or you can trust that they do in fact have your best interests at heart and let them do their job. I applaud our President for his incredible restraint. In the past, we have seen attacks on other coutries simply to divert attention away from other things. If he were trying to do that or go in for personal reasons, this war would have started a long time ago.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

OK. Let's say the reasons for the war are "pure". How about IFF's other comments regarding the "Orwellian" society?
There are so many things that are traceable today than twenty years ago. How many people use cash any more? Your credit card or your debit card numbers are just a bunch of numbers that tie into your big brother SSN. Cell phones are traceable, computer viewing is traceable, etc. I was a witness to an auto accident several years ago. The cop didn't even want my name or address, just my big brother SSN.
I hear it from my conservative friends "I don't care if the government watches me because I have nothing to hide". Neither to I. Never committed a crime, don't even have a speeding ticket (yet!). I try to be a good tax paying and law abiding citizen. Yet, my government wants to impose more restrictions and have access to my records without my knowledge or consent. Why? They want me to blindly trust them but they sure don't trust me.
Something is going amuck with our government. They are obsessed with more information and control regarding the masses. The Republicans claim they're for individual rights and the constitution. All I see is more expansion of government and more authority without accountability.
While some may be at peace while Bush is in office what would you think if we got another Clinton (Hillary!!!) in office who had all these big brother agencies at her disposal? Would she use it for the good of mankind? Think not.
Still think this is the best country in the world but we seem to be on an accelerated path to becoming a country that bows and cringes to the whims of big government (and big business). All in the name of peace, safety, and security. We've been on this path for many years and now it is starting to come to a head. It's the put the frog in boiling water analogy...put a frog in a pan of boiling water he'll jump out, put him in warm water and slowly turn up the heat you'll cookém.

 

[ifly4food]

To all who have disagreed with my statements: I am not trying to convince you I am right as I realize this is impossible.

To all who agreed with me: Thank you.

To all who have yet to make an opinion: you are the ones I am speaking to.

1. Big brother.
I am no conspiracy theorist, but look around you. Now compare how much we are watched by the government today compared to 50 years ago. Technological advances have made this possible and it is fed by post 9/11/01 hysteria and parenoia.
I fail to see how anyone can deny this is a concern.

2. The Thought Police (TSA)
What differentiates the TSA from the FBI or any other governmental police force is the lack of Due Process.
If you run afoul of the TSA there are no trials. No proceedings are public. There are no real appeals. This is all in the name of "national security".
Now, the TSA can take even your pilot license away because a pinhead buereauocrat at a checkpoint doesn't like your attitude and decides to get even by declaring you a "security risk".
Watch for this power to expand into loss of driver's licences, travel privilleges, passports, etc. in the future.
At least the FBI must indict you of something and hold a trial before you are penalized.

3. War.
I was speaking of war in general. After years of relative peace we have become a nation bent on waging global war. I am no hippie, but I don't feel we should be waging war in Iraq or N. Korea.
I contend it is due to American ego and a need to show power. It also is intended to focus the American people on a patriotic cause so that we don't question the actions of our government.

However, to those of you who spoke so strongly in support of war with Iraq...
Why is Iraq, more of a threat then N. Korea?
We have shown NO EVIDENCE that Iraq posesses weapons of mass destruction. N. Korea is known to posess enough nuclear material to assemble several warheads in short order and has said they plan to make more. They also posess the missles to attack Japan, China, S. Korea and other neighbors.
Iraq is closely controlled by sanctions and can export nothing except the oil they are allowed to sell. N. Korea is the worlds largest exporter of military technology with this going to 21% of its GDP. It has been caught selling ballistic missiles. These weapons go to the highest bidder and Al Qaida has the cash.
Saddam Hussein is an impotent dictator due to his being disarmed and cash strapped. While he makes great threats, his power is limited to hurting his own people. Kim Jung Il has threatened to wage war on the Korean peninsula and all of his neighbors if provoked by military action or even sanctions. He possesses the weapons, forces, and means to carry out this threat. He also has nothing to lose by doing so.
Saddam Hussein threatened to kill Bush senior. Kim Jung Il has threatened to kill everyone within range of his missles.
It's more than coincidence that Iraq controls one of the world's largest deposits of crude oil. N. Korea has no resources the US is interested in.

So again, I ask, if not for oil and pride, why is Iraq a larger threat to the world than N. Korea?

 

[flywithastick]

So again, I ask, if not for oil and pride, why is Iraq a larger threat to the world than N. Korea?

Where does this stuff about Iraq and it's big influence/impact on energy come from?! With Iraq essentially out of the Western oil picture, (taking out the taxes & correcting for inflation) gasoline prices right now are as low as they've ever been. Where's the big incentive to provide more supply at the cost of a major world conflict, lives of many people and world scrutiny? I don't see it.

Maybe Bush and his cronies just want the oil for themselves. They're going to seize it and put all the land and minerals in their name! No one will notice. No one noticed in '91 when GHWB seized Kuwaits assets. What a deal!!

Why are France, Germany & Russia so opposed to enforcing the UN resolutions? Morality? Nope - money!! They're the one's who do have investment in Iraq. Both weapons and oil production equipment. Who do you think sold them the uranium centrifuges? Germany! Who does Iraq owe big $$ to for weapons and oil production equipment? Russia! Can't link France in here right now - they're just elitist idiots.

 

[TXCAP4228]

To all who have disagreed with my statements: I am not trying to convince you I am right as I realize this is impossible....To all who have yet to make an opinion: you are the ones I am speaking to.

In that case I hope you won't mind if I provide a counter point to those who have not yet made up their mind.

1. Big brother.
I am no conspiracy theorist, but look around you. Now compare how much we are watched by the government today compared to 50 years ago. Technological advances have made this possible and it is fed by post 9/11/01 hysteria and parenoia.
I fail to see how anyone can deny this is a concern.

You are not a conspiracy theorist, but....

Come one. My parking garage has surveilace cameras, my ATM machine has surveilance cameras, the toll booths I drove through to get to work this morning had surveilance cameras, even the 7-11 where I got gas had surveilance cameras. Guess what, no one in the government is putting a "dossier" together on me. No one in the government is infringing on my rights or invading my privacy. I think you are being a little dramatic.

2. The Thought Police (TSA)
What differentiates the TSA from the FBI or any other governmental police force is the lack of Due Process.
If you run afoul of the TSA there are no trials. No proceedings are public. There are no real appeals. This is all in the name of "national security".
Now, the TSA can take even your pilot license away because a pinhead buereauocrat at a checkpoint doesn't like your attitude and decides to get even by declaring you a "security risk".
Watch for this power to expand into loss of driver's licences, travel privilleges, passports, etc. in the future.
At least the FBI must indict you of something and hold a trial before you are penalized.

Again, you're being a little too dramatic IMHO. If you read the statement on denying pilot's certificates, it doesn't say that a security screener can yank it. This is where they research you and decide you may be a terrorist trying to learn how to fly an airplane.

In spite of your being dramtic and exagerating a little, I agree with you that it is unconstitutional to deny due process. I am interested to see how this pans out.

The part about this expanding into travel priveleges and passports and drivers licenses is completely unsubstantiated. If you want people to take that particular statement seriously then please show us any politician or government agency that is even CONSIDERING it. He!!, if you do then I'll start a letter writing ccampaign myself. But otherwise, don't just run around saying the sky is falling.

3. War.
I was speaking of war in general. After years of relative peace we have become a nation bent on waging global war. I am no hippie, but I don't feel we should be waging war in Iraq or N. Korea.
I contend it is due to American ego and a need to show power. It also is intended to focus the American people on a patriotic cause so that we don't question the actions of our government.

1) Do you recall us sending troops to Yugoslavia? or Haiti? Do you recall us shooting missles off at factories in Africa? I don't agree that we have been at relative peace.
2) One of the beauties of America is that you may say anything you want in criticizing the government. You are contending here that America may go to war as a show of ego or power, while I disagree completely. As before, I am prepared to give reasons why I think my position is right. You ought to give reasons why yours is. Just saying so isn't enough to convince your inteded audience (those who have not yet decided).

Why I think my position is right:
A) We DO have evidence from many sources that Iraq has not met its committments to disarm.
B) The president did a pretty good job last night of America's position that we cannot wait for a smoking gun that may be another smoking crater where 3000 Americans were alive just seconds before.
C) It is better to act now and disarm those who would seek to harm us than to wait until they attack us again.
D) The current situation with North Korea is a good example of the prior administration NOT stepping up and taking care of a problem and intead just allowing it to fester. Now, North Korea has possible functioning nuclear weapons with which they are attempting to blackmail us. If we do nothing with Iraq and burry our head in the sand, Iraq will develop into a similar situaiton.
E) If you insist on seeing the evidence of Iraq's noncompliance, be patient. February 5th is not far off.

However, to those of you who spoke so strongly in support of war with Iraq...
Why is Iraq, more of a threat then N. Korea?
We have shown NO EVIDENCE that Iraq posesses weapons of mass destruction. N. Korea is known to posess enough nuclear material to assemble several warheads in short order and has said they plan to make more. They also posess the missles to attack Japan, China, S. Korea and other neighbors.

Iraq is more of a threat than North Korea for 2 reasons:
1) Iraq has USED WMD in the past on its own people and also during the Iran/Iraq war.
2) Iraq has ties to terrorist groups. Ari Fleischer has said previously and Bush said in the State of the Union last night that they have evidence linking Iraq to Al Quaeda. If you don't believe that then believe what the media has reported and what Iraq has acknowledged. They have harbored known terrorists recently - Abu Nidal.

Further, we HAVE shown evidence of Iraq's possession of WMD. Iraq admitted to having them. As part of the UN terms for ending hostilities after GulfWar1, Iraq has to demonstrate compliance in disarmement - ie, IRAQ has the burden of proof. The United Nations decided that, not the USA.

Next, you make a pretty good argument that Iraq is not a threat due to being cash strapped. However, we already know that funds from the sale of oil HAVE been diverted to unacceptable uses. Also, we also know that Iraq is hiding weapons caches that we know existed previously. Bush talked about thousands of tons of biological and chemical agents. Cash strapped or not, THAT is a threat.

Finally, now that North Korea has nukes it is sort of hard to invade isn't it? You see what will happen if we let Iraq get into the same situation?

 

[TXCAP4228]

Where does this stuff about Iraq and it's big influence/impact on energy come from?! With Iraq essentially out of the Western oil picture, (taking out the taxes & correcting for inflation) gasoline prices right now are as low as they've ever been. Where's the big incentive to provide more supply at the cost of a major world conflict, lives of many people and world scrutiny? I don't see it.

Maybe Bush and his cronies just want the oil for themselves. They're going to seize it and put all the land and minerals in their name! No one will notice. No one noticed in '91 when GHWB seized Kuwaits assets. What a deal!!

Why are France, Germany & Russia so opposed to enforcing the UN resolutions? Morality? Nope - money!! They're the one's who do have investment in Iraq. Both weapons and oil production equipment. Who do you think sold them the uranium centrifuges? Germany! Who does Iraq owe big $$ to for weapons and oil production equipment? Russia! Can't link France in here right now - they're just elitist idiots.

Well said, Fly. I'll add this about France: the French have sent commercial flights into Bagdahd in violation of the UN sanctions. Don't know what the purpose was but I remember this being reported in the press.

 

[flywithastick]

Re: TSA

Ifly4food has foresight. What happens now is not the problem. Once it starts, it's going to be tough to stop it.

I totally agree with the comments about Big Brother and infringements on our privacy and personal liberty. Can't say I agree with Ifly4food's thoughts on Bush's intentions in Iraq though.

Oh yeah, and the FBI HAS abused their powers in the past. Take a look at the 1960s...

60's?!?! How about the dozens of women and children gassed, burned and shot at Waco in 1993?!

http://www.rickross.com/graphics/waco_burning.jpg

Then there's Ruby Ridge in '92... Randy Weaver's 14 yr old son was fatally shot in the back by US Marshalls and wife was fatally shot in the neck while holding her baby by an FBI sniper.

http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/enforce/rubyridge/

Yea, I'd say the FBI has abused it's powers!