172 = $127/hr!

[bobs98tlr]

6K would be a bargain for a PVT, in Chicago most spend about 12K

Did you work at IAA? I think i might know you if you do.

 

[hindsight2020]

If in fact we're getting priced out of the market, how does the old argument of buy vs. rent shifts with the new paradigm of $130/hr cessna rentals?

At rental rates above 100/hr for a old 172, I just don't buy that the operating costs of these airframes have shot up that much in less than 5 years. As was illustrated before, even with the current gas prices, the differential does not account for the price increase. I also don't think insurance has shot up that high, although I'm open to hear from somebody who knows the numbers. So is this a case of profiteering stemming from the glass panel piston "revolution" and if so, is buying a feasible alternative to biting your way back into GA? talking about your garden variety steam gauge C-152/172 as a benchmark.

 

[flyslow24]

172 - $127/hour

At least someone is making a profit off the aviation industry...

 

[CFI2766]

If in fact we're getting priced out of the market, how does the old argument of buy vs. rent shifts with the new paradigm of $130/hr cessna rentals?

At rental rates above 100/hr for a old 172, I just don't buy that the operating costs of these airframes have shot up that much in less than 5 years. As was illustrated before, even with the current gas prices, the differential does not account for the price increase. I also don't think insurance has shot up that high, although I'm open to hear from somebody who knows the numbers. So is this a case of profiteering stemming from the glass panel piston "revolution" and if so, is buying a feasible alternative to biting your way back into GA? talking about your garden variety steam gauge C-152/172 as a benchmark.

Yes, Insurance has increased dramatically. Labor costs for mx have increased dramatically. (It costs much more per hour for an A&P to fix the A/C than for for an instructor to teach in it.) Fuel has exponetially increased. I'm working for/running a flight school with newer, non-glass 172's and Cirrus a/c, and we are not turning a huge profit. Tie-down fees. Airport fees. It's not pretty from the perspective of a flight school manager. It's a popular misconception that because the price has skyrocketed, the profits have skyrocketed. They have not.

 

[AerroMatt]

When I learned to fly a few decades ago, I was working at a pretty low-paying job at a defense contractor in the LA area. In terms of my wages, it cost me about 8 hours of labor (not counting taxes) in order to pay for 1 hour of dual in a C152.

If this labor/dual ratio has gone up, then yes it makes no sense for someone to go into aviation for a hobby or a career. But has it? This might explain why some are still willing to pay to learn to fly.

Otherwise, Microsoft Flight Simulator is a much cheaper form of entertainment.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The prices of used airplanes are coming down, particularly the 77-81 and first "new generation" aircraft that are now getting removed from the rental fleets. I would recommend anyone getting a rating these days to simply buy their own C172, put 200 hours and a good coat of wax on it, then sell it for what they had in it.

A pilot does not need a glass panel, or even a Garmin product, to get a rating. We had a old military issue "coffee grinder" NDB in the T-42 (Baron) at our club and many got instrument ratings in that thing. The Apache is not a sexy airplane, but multi time is multi time and there are still many of them on the market cheap.

I have yet to lose money on an airplane despite putting more than 1,500 hours on airplanes I've owned. Sure, you have to get your hands dirty and do a little work, but that is part of the fun.

Let the other guys pay the high insurance rates for flight schools and pay the maintenance for the local "Executive Jet Management" mechanics to clean the plugs on fouled out Lycomings. Pick up a book on maintenance you can perform yourself and make friends with your local mechanic (be sure to tip him generously when he has to come over and make sure you did it correctly.)

 

[wms]

F33C and T34...cool!

 

[~~~^~~~]

F33C and T34...cool!

Yes the Navy flying clubs had the T-34B models for $48 an hour, the Barons for $90 an hour. Pat Epps (Epps Air Service, PDK) used to let folks fly his F33C, but I think you have to be an employee to get your hands on it now.

The days of rental airplanes as toys probably are gone forever. The T-34's really were idiot proof, but apparently constant simulated ACM really took the life out of the wing spar. We never had a bit of problems with ours.

 

[acaTerry]

Time for me to get outta the cockpit and open a flight school....

 

[Twisted Mind]

When I last ran the budget for our corporate flown 172 it was $85 an hour! The company budgets to fly 200 hrs a year. Our Columbia 400 is $225 an hour. Flight schools fly more hours on their aircraft but they also pay much higher insurance! Trust me when I say that mom and pop flight schools are not making a good profit, if any at all.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

Yes, Insurance has increased dramatically. Labor costs for mx have increased dramatically. (It costs much more per hour for an A&P to fix the A/C than for for an instructor to teach in it.) Fuel has exponetially increased. I'm working for/running a flight school with newer, non-glass 172's and Cirrus a/c, and we are not turning a huge profit. Tie-down fees. Airport fees. It's not pretty from the perspective of a flight school manager. It's a popular misconception that because the price has skyrocketed, the profits have skyrocketed. They have not.

Most GA A&P's make between 8.00 per hour to 15.00 per hour, they are cheap just like pilots.

 

[Wiggums]

They will start bringing in pilots from overseas, still cheap for them.

What? Where? And then why are we exporting so many pilots to Asia and the Middle East?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I read an article which stated that older GA aircraft are actually being turned away from some maintenance shops due to insurance liabilities.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2007/070108maintenance.html

Maintenance problems for older aircraft?

Are maintenance shops refusing to work on older aircraft? It's not a widespread problem, but the few isolated cases that have sprung up mean that AOPA must maintain a close watch on the issue.

It started last August when one chain of FBOs in the West told customers it would no longer work on aircraft older than 18 years. Several other shops have reportedly taken the same position.

"This is strictly a business decision by these FBOs," said Andy Cebula, AOPA executive vice president of government affairs. "One insurance company offers a discount if the shop won't accept older aircraft. But all companies will still write insurance allowing a shop to work on any age aircraft."

Because the General Aviation Revitalization Act protects manufacturers from most lawsuits on aircraft older than 18 years, there is a perception that the next set of "deep pockets" for the attorneys to attack are the maintenance shops. Some shops have decided to save a little money on insurance by refusing to work on older aircraft.

But when you consider that 82 percent of the piston-engine fleet is more than 18 years old, it seems highly unlikely that most shops are going reject working on some 55,000 aircraft to compete for servicing the 10,000 manufactured within the last two decades.

"Nevertheless, AOPA will do whatever it takes to help defend our members' ability to maintain and fly their aircraft," said Cebula.

 

[aviator1978]

Yes, Insurance has increased dramatically. Labor costs for mx have increased dramatically. (It costs much more per hour for an A&P to fix the A/C than for for an instructor to teach in it.) Fuel has exponetially increased. I'm working for/running a flight school with newer, non-glass 172's and Cirrus a/c, and we are not turning a huge profit. Tie-down fees. Airport fees. It's not pretty from the perspective of a flight school manager. It's a popular misconception that because the price has skyrocketed, the profits have skyrocketed. They have not.

Right on.

Besides these very valid points, I would also like to add that many, many smaller GA airports are closing around the nation (especially in urban areas where people earn enough to pay for instruction.) The fixed costs at urban airports are sky high. You can still find cheap planes if you want to drive for an hour and a half to the sticks, but then you have to factor your car fuel / personal time into the equation.....

About a year ago I was approached my some folks that wanted to start a flight school, and wanted me to manage it. My salary would be based off of profit. I ran the numbers; even if my salary was 100% of profit (which it nearly would have been), I would be getting about $20,000 / year. No thanks.

This was based off of 4 C-172sp's ( 2-5 years old) at a rate of 125/hr, flying 60 -70 hrs a month.

 

[Goose Egg]

I'm SO glad that I already have my ratings. And I honestly don't think that I could afford to fly GA aircraft as a hobby for quite some time. Flying is a job... a fun job, but still a job--there are hobbies that are much less expensive.

Edit... But then again, I think I realized at a very early age that flying is really an untenable hobby, at least for those with normal incomes, which was one of the main reasons why I chose this as a career--I love flying, but in no way could I justify spending that kind of cash for pure entertainment. I look at the students at the school that I instruct at, and wonder how they can ever afford to do their training. I think I spent about a quarter of what they will end up spending.

If I do decide to fly as a hobby ever, it will be gliders--much more economical, especially if you fly club ships--they burn approximately 0 gph, and you don't pay per hour, you just pay yearly dues. And you don't even need to buy a headset. Cheaper still if you can figure out a way to get winch launched in North America, because winching is cheaper than aero-towing. Embrace your inner Euro!!

In any case, there are still ways to make flight training relatively economical. I payed $55/hr for a Cherokee 140, and this wasn't that long ago. Just be careful. And whatever you do, DO NOT train in glass. I think I payed $65/hr for a Cessna 152 for my Private, and it didn't even have a GPS.

-Goose