172 = $127/hr!

[turbinesurgeon]

Yes, Insurance has increased dramatically. Labor costs for mx have increased dramatically. (It costs much more per hour for an A&P to fix the A/C than for for an instructor to teach in it.) Fuel has exponetially increased. I'm working for/running a flight school with newer, non-glass 172's and Cirrus a/c, and we are not turning a huge profit. Tie-down fees. Airport fees. It's not pretty from the perspective of a flight school manager. It's a popular misconception that because the price has skyrocketed, the profits have skyrocketed. They have not.

Most GA A&P's make between 8.00 per hour to 15.00 per hour, they are cheap just like pilots.

 

[Wiggums]

They will start bringing in pilots from overseas, still cheap for them.

What? Where? And then why are we exporting so many pilots to Asia and the Middle East?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I read an article which stated that older GA aircraft are actually being turned away from some maintenance shops due to insurance liabilities.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2007/070108maintenance.html

Maintenance problems for older aircraft?

Are maintenance shops refusing to work on older aircraft? It's not a widespread problem, but the few isolated cases that have sprung up mean that AOPA must maintain a close watch on the issue.

It started last August when one chain of FBOs in the West told customers it would no longer work on aircraft older than 18 years. Several other shops have reportedly taken the same position.

"This is strictly a business decision by these FBOs," said Andy Cebula, AOPA executive vice president of government affairs. "One insurance company offers a discount if the shop won't accept older aircraft. But all companies will still write insurance allowing a shop to work on any age aircraft."

Because the General Aviation Revitalization Act protects manufacturers from most lawsuits on aircraft older than 18 years, there is a perception that the next set of "deep pockets" for the attorneys to attack are the maintenance shops. Some shops have decided to save a little money on insurance by refusing to work on older aircraft.

But when you consider that 82 percent of the piston-engine fleet is more than 18 years old, it seems highly unlikely that most shops are going reject working on some 55,000 aircraft to compete for servicing the 10,000 manufactured within the last two decades.

"Nevertheless, AOPA will do whatever it takes to help defend our members' ability to maintain and fly their aircraft," said Cebula.

 

[aviator1978]

Yes, Insurance has increased dramatically. Labor costs for mx have increased dramatically. (It costs much more per hour for an A&P to fix the A/C than for for an instructor to teach in it.) Fuel has exponetially increased. I'm working for/running a flight school with newer, non-glass 172's and Cirrus a/c, and we are not turning a huge profit. Tie-down fees. Airport fees. It's not pretty from the perspective of a flight school manager. It's a popular misconception that because the price has skyrocketed, the profits have skyrocketed. They have not.

Right on.

Besides these very valid points, I would also like to add that many, many smaller GA airports are closing around the nation (especially in urban areas where people earn enough to pay for instruction.) The fixed costs at urban airports are sky high. You can still find cheap planes if you want to drive for an hour and a half to the sticks, but then you have to factor your car fuel / personal time into the equation.....

About a year ago I was approached my some folks that wanted to start a flight school, and wanted me to manage it. My salary would be based off of profit. I ran the numbers; even if my salary was 100% of profit (which it nearly would have been), I would be getting about $20,000 / year. No thanks.

This was based off of 4 C-172sp's ( 2-5 years old) at a rate of 125/hr, flying 60 -70 hrs a month.

 

[Goose Egg]

I'm SO glad that I already have my ratings. And I honestly don't think that I could afford to fly GA aircraft as a hobby for quite some time. Flying is a job... a fun job, but still a job--there are hobbies that are much less expensive.

Edit... But then again, I think I realized at a very early age that flying is really an untenable hobby, at least for those with normal incomes, which was one of the main reasons why I chose this as a career--I love flying, but in no way could I justify spending that kind of cash for pure entertainment. I look at the students at the school that I instruct at, and wonder how they can ever afford to do their training. I think I spent about a quarter of what they will end up spending.

If I do decide to fly as a hobby ever, it will be gliders--much more economical, especially if you fly club ships--they burn approximately 0 gph, and you don't pay per hour, you just pay yearly dues. And you don't even need to buy a headset. Cheaper still if you can figure out a way to get winch launched in North America, because winching is cheaper than aero-towing. Embrace your inner Euro!!

In any case, there are still ways to make flight training relatively economical. I payed $55/hr for a Cherokee 140, and this wasn't that long ago. Just be careful. And whatever you do, DO NOT train in glass. I think I payed $65/hr for a Cessna 152 for my Private, and it didn't even have a GPS.

-Goose

 

[Redan]

I read an article which stated that older GA aircraft are actually being turned away from some maintenance shops due to insurance liabilities.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2007/070108maintenance.html

This article mentions the "deep pockets" for attorneys to attack. Anyone wishing to identify the root cause of the high expense of aviation (as well as numerous things in our society) could simply settle on that one little word..."ATTORNEYS."

 

[~~~^~~~]

Redan:

The attorneys have help from Experts. This is one of the most impressive. It is not unheard of for the bills of this lab to run over $100,000 a day to perform and inspection on a general aviation aircraft:
http://www.mcswain-eng.com/index.html
It is pretty neat to see these folks in full operation, but when you think about the effect it is having on the part of aviation that we love, it is very sobering.

This is the reason few young professionals wanting to feed a family would even consider being a mechanic who would work on General Aviation aircraft.

 

[timmay]

The other thing nobody has mentioned is the absurd aquistion cost of these new airplanes. A new 172 is around 300,000 and a cirrus can run over 500,000. That along with fuel, insurance and the depreciated value of the airplane make it very expensive to rent them out.

 

[Redan]

Wow Fins, that is most impressive. I wouldn't be at all surprised if approaching fifty percent of the cost of an aircraft is for liability insurance. GA manufacturers were nearly sued out of existance several years ago. Ask an OB-GYN about the cost of malpractice insurance (if you can find one who still practices). And we all know how well attorneys and "consultants" smooth out labor negotiations.

 

[DX Rick]

I know what you mean. I went down to the local FBO here in ATL, and they want well over $100/hr for a little Diamand 4-seater without all the fancy flat-panels and such. Add the Honeywell screens and they want something like $150/hr. I remember renting a C-150 at the same airport back in the mid 90s for only $35/hr. I just can't afford to go rent a GA airplane to buzz around the local area anymore. I remember when we used to talk about the "$50 hamburger." Now it's more like the $200 hamburger.

How much did you spend on that King Air at GIA?

Hello?!?!?! People????

Gas is not cheap! What do you expect? Yeah, that sucks, but what do you expect?

Mon, when I was working on my Private in 2001, the rate of a C-172 was $120/hr without GPS. $130/hr with.
I found a POS Cherokee 180 w/ constant speed for $100/hr.


The regionals highing like they are, the flight schools will jack up the costs because "You'll get a job as a real airline pilot right away" is what they tell propective student. Well, thats the line the owner of the flight school I worked for. He even had convinced that they could skip the regionals if they instructed for 5,000 hours.

Best bet, go outside a big city to small town America. Find a place that still rents 172's for less than $100/hr. They're out there, just gotta find them.

 

[PCL_128]

How much did you spend on that King Air at GIA?

Probably about the same per hour as your mom gets per "trick."

 

[JimNtexas]

I read an article which stated that older GA aircraft are actually being turned away from some maintenance shops due to insurance liabilities.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2007/070108maintenance.html

That's the case at Austin KAUS. The one shop there won't work on pistons except for Cirri.

 

[aviator1978]

Hey Jim,

I know of at least two A&P's at KAUS that would work on anything.

 

[JimNtexas]

Hey Jim,

I know of at least two A&P's at KAUS that would work on anything.

We use Sven from Crosswinds in Copeland. He makes housecalls.

But the only real shop is Cap Wings, and they don't want to work on riff-raff.

 

[aviator1978]

There's compass flight support and bergstrom airmotive (I think they are still called that). I know Compass will work on riff-raff. There's also a good a&p that works on Virgil Kennedy's aircraft. He'll probably work on riff raff as well.

 

[DX Rick]

Probably about the same per hour as your mom gets per "trick."

Ah yes, the old "Your Momma" jokes.

So, back to you being a GIA swine.....

 

[FlyingBuckI]

I paid $55/hr for a 152 in 1999. Made friends with a local instructor, washed airplanes in exchange for flight time, and ended up with my private for around $2500. Shortly after the FBO closed due to insurance costs. Now you have to drive at least 45 min to the nearest airport with an FBO, and they only fly new diamond aircraft for $$$.

The up side was that I became the sole instructor there for a while and made friends with all the pilots. Sucks for people starting out though. It's just not cost effective to start a new school, even if you have the money for additional a/c and an A&P on staff.

 

[hindsight2020]

And that's the point. Even if you were lucky to be able to barely manage to get your ratings in when it was affordable, now your student base has effectively shrunk, and oh by the way, your CFI compensation has not proportionally adjusted either. So you are getting subrogated in cost indirectly.

And you're right about the dwindling numbers of operations. I live in a metro area of 250K+ and the downtown airport (KDTN) is a ghost town, I can't even find the FBO or any semblance of activity, it's appalling.

 

[ex j-41]

And that's the point. Even if you were lucky to be able to barely manage to get your ratings in when it was affordable, now your student base has effectively shrunk, and oh by the way, your CFI compensation has not proportionally adjusted either. So you are getting subrogated in cost indirectly.

And you're right about the dwindling numbers of operations. I live in a metro area of 250K+ and the downtown airport (KDTN) is a ghost town, I can't even find the FBO or any semblance of activity, it's appalling.

It's job security.

 

[unreal]

I honestly don't think I could afford flight training if I'd have started now. The multi I teach in is ~$300/hour with me in it, which one of my students figured is somewhere along the lines of 8 cents per second. Most guys spend ~$14,000 for an instrument rating in the multi. Sickening.

Oh yes, and I still make $15/hour. :uzi: