16 HR Rest requirement

[AIRMOTIVE]

Within our flight department we have been discussing 135.267 and specifically the 16 HR rest requirement. The question is does 91 flying count when determining if you have exceeded the ten hours of flight by more than sixty minutes? Is there a FAA interpretation of this regulation? If so, is there a case you can point to? In the book "Everything Explained, Professional Pilot" It does answer this question, however the sources cited are difficult to interpret for some and might be seen as ambiguous soo... Is there a NPRM currently in process?

 

[b350capt]

As long as the 91 leg is NOT followed by a subsequent 135 leg during the same assignment, then no. If you are flying part 91 in the middle of a 135 flight assignment then 'commercial' part 91 flying IS counted in your 10 hours. Once your last 135 legs end, you have no part 91 flight or rest limitations until you begin your next 135 flight assignment. Not sure if there is an interpretation, but the regulations are fairly clear. Clear as mud, haha.

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

This has been a dark gray area for a long time. Some people say that if the customer is paying to reposition the plane empty that it's still a 135 leg even though no pax are onboard. Pilots who want to get home say they can part 91 it back home. I haven't looked at the wording in the reg's lately, but I think it addresses "passengers or customer property", but not the bill for the trip. I'm not sure, but I think it depends on who is paying for the airplane to move on that leg. If your company repositions on it's own dime--part 91? If customer pays for round trip but travels one way--Both legs part 135? Either way, part 135 rest requirements must be met prior to you next 135 leg. Still clear as mud, huh?

 

[Corp Pilot]

Question- "does 91 flying count when determining if you have exceeded the ten hours of flight by more than sixty minutes?"

Answer- Yes (as long is it is "commercial" not "Private" - ie. flying a C172.)

Why? - Look at 135.267 (b) and (e)

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed --

This paragraph addresses "commercial flying". So regardless of 91 or 135, it is still "commercial flying" (you are getting paid as a pilot). 91 flying is commercial flying......ask any corporate pilot. Flight instruction is also commercial flying and may come into play if you are moonlighting as a flight instructor.

(e) When a flight crewmember has exceeded the daily flight time limitations in this section, because of circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), that flight crewmember must have a rest period before being assigned or accepting an assignment for flight time of at least --

(e) refers to flight time limitations in this section as provided in paragraph (b).


Hope this helps

 

[AIRMOTIVE]

Thanks for the feedback. Our planes rarely move without a customer paying for the empty leg or position leg. It is routine to fly 135 then 91 on the back side and exceed ten hours of flight within an assignment for us. The interpretation of the customer paying for the position leg "empty" therefore you are bound by the 135 flight regs. is not something I agree with. If it was a live leg then yes. Our FSDO and POI does not share that interpretation either. My only question was if 91 commercial flying is included in the lookback to determine if 16 HR rest is required if you have flown 11+ hrs., however you got there.

 

[AirWolf]

From our POI and company understanding, it cannot be a scheduled leg to circumvent the 135 requirements. "(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed --"
However, we are allowed to come home 91 if the crew requests it and the Chief pilot authorizes it after looking at the duty day. Crews are never scheduled to come home 91 if it will impact either duty day or flight time limitations, but they can ask to "91" home if they want to get home. If it is scheduled (assigned) by the company, then they are violating you if you accept it. It clearly states that it must be "because of circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions)". Getting you home because the aircraft has another trip the next morning from home base is not circumstances beyond the control.
Hope this helps. Good discussion.

 

[CelticCitation]

Just to muddy the waters a little more, my opinion is that the pax only pay for the leg they fly. They are quoted based on where they want to go until where they want to be dropped, plus whatever else you can get away with charging. For example, if you are lucky enough to quote two one ways at full rate, customer "A" from OAK to SUN, then customer "B" from SUN back to OAK, you are paid for twice the amount than will be flown. You do not fly the route twice, and that would not count towards double the duty or flight time. Why then would a reposition leg be considered as "paid for" by a customer since they could care less where you go next, or where you are coming from? When our POI asks who is paying for a repositioning leg, I say we are. If someone wanted to pay to ride the airplane or send frieght on it, I guarantee would would take the money, as long as it doen't affect the other trip.

 

[avbug]

This topic is always misunderstood, and no, its not clear as mud; it's just clear.

You need to come to an understanding regarding that last leg, however. Simply because the flight is operated under Part 91 doesn't mean it isn't being performed as a duty to the company. If the certificate holder assigns you to make the flight, you're still acting with a duty for the company, and whether you act under the operating regulations of part 91 or 135 isn't relevant. Who's being charged for the flight isn't particularly relevant, either.

You appear to be asking a question regarding the proverbial "tail end ferry." This occurs when your duty to act for the company has been completed, and you are free to act on your own. You are released. The company isn't asking you to make the flight. You may be out of duty time. You may have reached your flight time limits. However, you're stuck in timbucktoo and want to get home...the crew can elect to make the flight. The company can't ask the crew to make the flight, because that then becomes duty...something the company can't assign and the crew can't accept.

Once the duty to act on behalf of the company has ended, you're not beholden to the flight time restrictions, nor to the duty limitations of Part 135. In other words, let's say you have a crew of two and a ten hour flight time limitation. You are a regularly scheduled crew with a 14 hour duty limitation. You have reached 2200 hours at the end of your 14 hours of duty, and you've flown exactly ten hours in a mixture of Part 135 and Part 91 legs for your employer. You now need to reposition the airplane home.

The company can't ask you to do it. The certificate holder may not assign you to more duty nor to more flight time, and even if they do, you can't accept such an assignment. However, you can volunteer to make the flight (and this is an important technicality). Let's say you have a two hour flight to get home, meaning you will end up having flown 12 hours all told in the previous 24. Those two hour are done after your duty to the company has ended. They'll count against future flying (because it is commercial flying), but not against your past flying...duty's over, so this flying doesn't apply to the duty which has already ended.

This also doesn't mean you need sixteen hours of rest...becuase this isn't an operation assigned by the certificate holder. Your rest doesn't begin until you get home, but you don't need additional rest, either.

Now, change that a little. Let's say you're a regularly scheduled crew with a 14 hour duty day, and you've flown 10 hours by the time you hit hour twelve of your duty. You have two more hours of duty, and the company needs the airplane home. You make the flight, which lasts 60 minutes...and now you need sixteen hours of rest following the completion of the flight.

In all cases, the single biggest overriding regulatory issue, and the one which will be universally invoked during enforcement procedings if you do get yourself in trouble, will be 14 CFR 91.13. It's invoked in every single legal interpretation on the subject, and included in every legal action taken against a certificate holder or flight crewmember where rest requirements are compromised. 91.13 is, of course, careless and reckless operation, and you'll find that thrown at you in a heartbeat even if you're legal, if an inspector believes you've flown unsafely, tired, or pushed reasonable limits.

Just to muddy the waters a little more, my opinion is that the pax only pay for the leg they fly.

No water muddied there, because it's not relevant. You're getting paid to make the flight, and therefore you've engaged in commercial flying (which can still apply even if you don't get paid, but log the time...subject of another discussion for another time). It's commercial flying, regardless of whether the customer paid for the leg or not.

Why then would a reposition leg be considered as "paid for" by a customer since they could care less where you go next, or where you are coming from?

Again, irrelevant, because YOU'RE getting paid. It's commercial flight time. However, regardless of whether a customer pays for a leg or not, this doesn't change the ability to operate under Part 91 when no persons or property are carried between point A and B for compensation or hire. A tail end ferry without the passenger or his posessions on board can be very easily performed under Part 91, regardless of whether the customer pays for that leg or not...because who is paying isn't relevant to the question of duty or the regulation under which the flight is operated.

Simply because you make a flight on behalf of a client doesn't make it a 135 flight.

My only question was if 91 commercial flying is included in the lookback to determine if 16 HR rest is required if you have flown 11+ hrs., however you got there.

Depends. If that 91 commercial flying was done by assignment of the certificate holder, then yes it is included in the lookback and does determine the prospective rest to follow the duty and flight operation.

If that 91 commercial flying was performed after your duty to act for the company had ended, then no, it's not part of the lookback (but does apply looking "forward," in that it applies to your next look back cycle)...and doesn't increase your prospective post-duty rest cycle.

 

[Raskal]

Good post avbug, well put.

The way we used to do it was how the POI worked it out, if any leg on the trip (assuming all under the same trip number) was 135, than the whole thing was governed under 135. This, of course, did not include the "deadhead home" leg which was an option. This seemed to keep us out of trouble.

 

[avbug]

The way we used to do it was how the POI worked it out, if any leg on the trip (assuming all under the same trip number) was 135, than the whole thing was governed under 135. This, of course, did not include the "deadhead home" leg which was an option.

With respect to duty and rest times, that's 100% correct.

With respect to the actual flight operation, even though you're acting under obligation to the certificate holder during duty hours, when flying an empty leg you can still operate under the rules of 91 (ie without conforming to opspec minimums, etc).

 

[TransMach]

135.267

Avbug,

See quote:

You appear to be asking a question regarding the proverbial "tail end ferry." This occurs when your duty to act for the company has been completed, and you are free to act on your own. You are released. The company isn't asking you to make the flight. You may be out of duty time. You may have reached your flight time limits. However, you're stuck in timbucktoo and want to get home...the crew can elect to make the flight. The company can't ask the crew to make the flight, because that then becomes duty...something the company can't assign and the crew can't accept.


Endquote:

Why do you believe that when FAR 135 doesn't apply (no persons or property being transported for compensation or hire) the company can't assign and the crew can't accept a tail end ferry? It's a "91" operation and there is no restriction in FAR 91 (or other relevent labor code) that prevents the employer from making a work assignment. Yes, if the crew is fatigued they can not accept (insert FAR 61 and 91 fitness for duty requirements) but I miss where the company is prevented from making the assignment.

TransMach

 

[b350capt]

I would agree. It is perfectly legal to fly a 14 hour 135 duty day and 9.0 of 135 flying (2 pilot crew). Get out of the aircraft, get a cup of coffee and fly the owner of the aircraft (or other part 91) another 2 hours (11 hours total). If your company also manages the aircraft, they can assign you this part 91 duty as well.

This can be assigned by the certificate holder as part 91 flying (while not rest, it is not 135 flight duty, and therefore does not generate the need for rest). You would be required to have 10 hours of rest in 24 hours throughout and at the completion of your 135 flying. Once your last 135 leg is over, you can continue to fly assigned part 91 as long as you are not acting careless or reckless (fatigued for example), it is legal. You run into problems when it comes to your next 135 trip. Then all part 91 flying (commercial) is counted 10 in 24, and the part 91 flying assigned by the company cannot be counted as rest.

While not the popular view for crew, that is the standard that our current FSDO/POI and all other POI's I've talked to have agreed with. Some companies seem to abuse this, and come up with 16 hour duty day rules, etc or to make crews fly over 10 hours or 14 hour duty a standard practice. While potentially abusive, it's legal. As long as they don't count the assigned part 91 flying as rest.

 

[avbug]

It's a "91" operation and there is no restriction in FAR 91 (or other relevent labor code) that prevents the employer from making a work assignment.

No, not when the employer is a certificate holder under 135, directing it's crew who has performed duty under 135. Some employers would like to believe what you've described, but it just doesn't fly.

A certificate holder may not burn up a crew for 14 hours, then fly them as they like afterward simply by calling it Part 91. The certificate holder may not assign, and the crew may not accept...

Look it up.

Once your last 135 leg is over, you can continue to fly assigned part 91 as long as you are not acting careless or reckless (fatigued for example), it is legal.

Not if the certificate holder assigns it; the certificate holder is prohibited from doing so, and if the certificate holder does so, the crew is prevented from accepting the assignment.

 

[100-1/2]

Definitions-

"...For the purposes of this Part [135] transportation, not local in nature [company provided/supplied in the form of commercial tickets, company car/rental, Part 91 Operated Leg in Company a/c] cannot be considered in any rest period..."


There is a section in faa.gov that address the administrator's position in many of these regs through official 'interpretation' and is the basis and source for the new inspector handbooks and guidance material for ops and mx inspectors. Do a search locally in their site for FAR Interpretations. There it clearly spells out the 91 leg following a day of 135 ops is not counted toward the flight time limits for a particular day.

HOWEVER:

#1 - If you bend the airplane on the last 91 leg of a day ad that leg in fact carried you over the limit for the day, they will violate you and/or your company.


#2 - If this flight time when added to all other Commercial flying within a 24-hour period exceeds the 8/10 hour rule, and you bend the airplane on any 91/135 leg during that period, they will violate you and/or your company.


#3 - Company provided transportation as stated above cannot be considered in calculating any rest period. You must have 10 consecutive hours of rest in any 24 hour period. It is impossible to conduct 12 hours of duty regardless of flight time followed by any flight time that would not enable the crew to fly anywhere regardless of weather provisions, park the plane, debrief/check-out with dispatch within 14 hours of beginning that duty day.


#4 - ...and no crew member may accept... any assignment that will/[may] cause them to exceed 14 hours of duty time.

#5 - Operational Control. you cannot dictate what flights occur and to/from where unless you are listed in the Ops Specs as authorized to dispatch. In this case you are straddling the 'No certificate holder may and no crew member may accept.... statement.

good luck explaining this to your margin cheating boss. There are 20 other whippersnappers less informed than you ready to fly the plane for less money. BTW the FAA does not view ignorance or 'misunderstanding' of the regs as a valid deffense

100-1/2

 

[340drvr]

OK, let me preface by saying that I do not claim to know the absolute answers to these FAR issues whatsoever.

100-1/2, do you have a link to your interepretation reference? thanks

avbug - I guess I don't follow the logic of your stance regarding the flight/duty time regs. Using the phrase "No certificate holder may....." as the basis just doesn't make sense. Throughout Part 135, there are numerous regs that begin with those words, I won't list them all, but as a sampling, weather rules, autopilot restrictions, flight crewmember requirements (training, checkrides, etc.) all use "no certificate holder...." or "no person may operate......." etc.
If you go back to the Applicability paragraph beginning each subpart in 135, it says something like "This subpart prescribes... (limitations)...for operations conducted under this part."
Which, to me means those operations conducted under Part 135, but would not apply to Part 91 ops. Using your global criteria, any "ABC Flying Service" company, once a 135 certificate holder, would have to comply with 135 regs in every operation conducted, no matter what. That just doesn't make sense to me, plenty of companies have 135 charter aircraft and crew, Part 91 aircraft and crew, and various combinations through owner-leaseback, contract pilots, etc. Applying the "no certificate holder may...." criteria universally to all ops would mean that ABC Flying could never "assign" the 300 hour commercial-certificate line guy to go pick up parts in the owner's Part 91 Cessna 182 unless he was qualified under all the 135 rules? Doesn't add up.

(still confused).

 

[avbug]

It's really not that confusing. A certificate holder cannot simply comply with the duty, flight, and rest regulations of Part 135 for 14 hours, then move to Part 91 with no restrictions. It doesn't work like that. The certificate holder doesn't simply keep on trucking under Part 91 when all the duty and flight time has been used up.

By enjoying the privileges accorded the certificate holder, once the certificate holder has made the assignments (which must comply with 135), he or she can't assign beyond those restrictions, and the crew can't accept such an assignment.

 

[100-1/2]

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/2003/johnson.rtf

30 pages of historical letters of interpretation from the Counsel's office at the FAA. you can backup off the link to the counsel's search page and enter anything in the string search like flight time, duty period, rest period, etc. leave the year blank for more results.

The letter is principally re: 121 ops scenarios. However, the body of the letter details several
reflections on 135 scenarios. Footnotes throughout also reference other letters of interpretations you can include in the year and string searched to find
specific letter references.

Print it and post it on your duty rooms' information and communication boards. May also provide a copy in your CP's inbox. Any more lately, these are green behind the ears "yes" men that will do and believe whatever the "boss" says is rule of thumb.

Good luck out there. 100-1/2

It is not defined in this letter, However, it would seem I was incorrect in stating 91 legs following 135 are not considered in the 8-hour limit for that day, but total cumulative across a 24 hour period where portions of 2 duty periods may accrue flying time. Seems this time only accounts toward the larger period limits. I believe they reference quarterly and annual limits. I do recall another letter in 2000-2002 that contradicted this, specifying a 24-hr period scenario where flight time spanning 2 duty periods separated by a 10 hour Rest period could potentially accrue flight time in excess of the 8 hours for a 24 hour period. I will look back and investigate if a policy shift occurred since then to the 2005 letter where times only account toward the larger periodical limitations.

100-1/2

 

[avbug]

Regularly scheduled crews can overfly the cumulative times so long as it occurs during a regularly scheduled duty period; the hour meter for crew flight time limitations resets based on the day, vs. the 24 hour lookback perod for unscheduled crews. You need to differentiate between which type of crew scheduling to which it is you're referring when considering cumulative flight times.

That's the principal advantage to a certificate holder in using regularly scheduled duty periods for a crew.

 

[100-1/2]

135.265(a)4 - 8 Hours during any 24 Consecutive Hours for a flight crew consisting of one Pilot





135.267(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed—
(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(2) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.



Clock stops after 24 hours from first hour flown.



Plain as day in black and white.



100-1/2

 

[Viffer]

135.267(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed—
(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(2) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.



Clock stops after 24 hours from first hour flown.



Plain as day in black and white.



100-1/2

Yep. Any 91 after 135 is added in, no question about it. Also for any of you guys doing 91 end legs that will knowingly exceed 10 hours, you had better be closing out the 135 trip and getting a new 91 release number from the certificate holder. And just as a note, I personally asked our POI once if the FAA/FSDO considered flight or block time for these limitations. He told me in person that they total BLOCK time in what counts towards the 10 in 24. That can be a big difference when you have a day with a lot of stops, but it's something that everyone should clarify with their POI's because you could be digging yourselves into a very deep hole with the FAA, no matter what a charter DO says.