16 HR Rest requirement

[AIRMOTIVE]

Within our flight department we have been discussing 135.267 and specifically the 16 HR rest requirement. The question is does 91 flying count when determining if you have exceeded the ten hours of flight by more than sixty minutes? Is there a FAA interpretation of this regulation? If so, is there a case you can point to? In the book "Everything Explained, Professional Pilot" It does answer this question, however the sources cited are difficult to interpret for some and might be seen as ambiguous soo... Is there a NPRM currently in process?

 

[b350capt]

As long as the 91 leg is NOT followed by a subsequent 135 leg during the same assignment, then no. If you are flying part 91 in the middle of a 135 flight assignment then 'commercial' part 91 flying IS counted in your 10 hours. Once your last 135 legs end, you have no part 91 flight or rest limitations until you begin your next 135 flight assignment. Not sure if there is an interpretation, but the regulations are fairly clear. Clear as mud, haha.

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

This has been a dark gray area for a long time. Some people say that if the customer is paying to reposition the plane empty that it's still a 135 leg even though no pax are onboard. Pilots who want to get home say they can part 91 it back home. I haven't looked at the wording in the reg's lately, but I think it addresses "passengers or customer property", but not the bill for the trip. I'm not sure, but I think it depends on who is paying for the airplane to move on that leg. If your company repositions on it's own dime--part 91? If customer pays for round trip but travels one way--Both legs part 135? Either way, part 135 rest requirements must be met prior to you next 135 leg. Still clear as mud, huh?

 

[Corp Pilot]

Question- "does 91 flying count when determining if you have exceeded the ten hours of flight by more than sixty minutes?"

Answer- Yes (as long is it is "commercial" not "Private" - ie. flying a C172.)

Why? - Look at 135.267 (b) and (e)

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed --

This paragraph addresses "commercial flying". So regardless of 91 or 135, it is still "commercial flying" (you are getting paid as a pilot). 91 flying is commercial flying......ask any corporate pilot. Flight instruction is also commercial flying and may come into play if you are moonlighting as a flight instructor.

(e) When a flight crewmember has exceeded the daily flight time limitations in this section, because of circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), that flight crewmember must have a rest period before being assigned or accepting an assignment for flight time of at least --

(e) refers to flight time limitations in this section as provided in paragraph (b).


Hope this helps

 

[AIRMOTIVE]

Thanks for the feedback. Our planes rarely move without a customer paying for the empty leg or position leg. It is routine to fly 135 then 91 on the back side and exceed ten hours of flight within an assignment for us. The interpretation of the customer paying for the position leg "empty" therefore you are bound by the 135 flight regs. is not something I agree with. If it was a live leg then yes. Our FSDO and POI does not share that interpretation either. My only question was if 91 commercial flying is included in the lookback to determine if 16 HR rest is required if you have flown 11+ hrs., however you got there.

 

[AirWolf]

From our POI and company understanding, it cannot be a scheduled leg to circumvent the 135 requirements. "(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed --"
However, we are allowed to come home 91 if the crew requests it and the Chief pilot authorizes it after looking at the duty day. Crews are never scheduled to come home 91 if it will impact either duty day or flight time limitations, but they can ask to "91" home if they want to get home. If it is scheduled (assigned) by the company, then they are violating you if you accept it. It clearly states that it must be "because of circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions)". Getting you home because the aircraft has another trip the next morning from home base is not circumstances beyond the control.
Hope this helps. Good discussion.

 

[CelticCitation]

Just to muddy the waters a little more, my opinion is that the pax only pay for the leg they fly. They are quoted based on where they want to go until where they want to be dropped, plus whatever else you can get away with charging. For example, if you are lucky enough to quote two one ways at full rate, customer "A" from OAK to SUN, then customer "B" from SUN back to OAK, you are paid for twice the amount than will be flown. You do not fly the route twice, and that would not count towards double the duty or flight time. Why then would a reposition leg be considered as "paid for" by a customer since they could care less where you go next, or where you are coming from? When our POI asks who is paying for a repositioning leg, I say we are. If someone wanted to pay to ride the airplane or send frieght on it, I guarantee would would take the money, as long as it doen't affect the other trip.

 

[avbug]

This topic is always misunderstood, and no, its not clear as mud; it's just clear.

You need to come to an understanding regarding that last leg, however. Simply because the flight is operated under Part 91 doesn't mean it isn't being performed as a duty to the company. If the certificate holder assigns you to make the flight, you're still acting with a duty for the company, and whether you act under the operating regulations of part 91 or 135 isn't relevant. Who's being charged for the flight isn't particularly relevant, either.

You appear to be asking a question regarding the proverbial "tail end ferry." This occurs when your duty to act for the company has been completed, and you are free to act on your own. You are released. The company isn't asking you to make the flight. You may be out of duty time. You may have reached your flight time limits. However, you're stuck in timbucktoo and want to get home...the crew can elect to make the flight. The company can't ask the crew to make the flight, because that then becomes duty...something the company can't assign and the crew can't accept.

Once the duty to act on behalf of the company has ended, you're not beholden to the flight time restrictions, nor to the duty limitations of Part 135. In other words, let's say you have a crew of two and a ten hour flight time limitation. You are a regularly scheduled crew with a 14 hour duty limitation. You have reached 2200 hours at the end of your 14 hours of duty, and you've flown exactly ten hours in a mixture of Part 135 and Part 91 legs for your employer. You now need to reposition the airplane home.

The company can't ask you to do it. The certificate holder may not assign you to more duty nor to more flight time, and even if they do, you can't accept such an assignment. However, you can volunteer to make the flight (and this is an important technicality). Let's say you have a two hour flight to get home, meaning you will end up having flown 12 hours all told in the previous 24. Those two hour are done after your duty to the company has ended. They'll count against future flying (because it is commercial flying), but not against your past flying...duty's over, so this flying doesn't apply to the duty which has already ended.

This also doesn't mean you need sixteen hours of rest...becuase this isn't an operation assigned by the certificate holder. Your rest doesn't begin until you get home, but you don't need additional rest, either.

Now, change that a little. Let's say you're a regularly scheduled crew with a 14 hour duty day, and you've flown 10 hours by the time you hit hour twelve of your duty. You have two more hours of duty, and the company needs the airplane home. You make the flight, which lasts 60 minutes...and now you need sixteen hours of rest following the completion of the flight.

In all cases, the single biggest overriding regulatory issue, and the one which will be universally invoked during enforcement procedings if you do get yourself in trouble, will be 14 CFR 91.13. It's invoked in every single legal interpretation on the subject, and included in every legal action taken against a certificate holder or flight crewmember where rest requirements are compromised. 91.13 is, of course, careless and reckless operation, and you'll find that thrown at you in a heartbeat even if you're legal, if an inspector believes you've flown unsafely, tired, or pushed reasonable limits.

Just to muddy the waters a little more, my opinion is that the pax only pay for the leg they fly.

No water muddied there, because it's not relevant. You're getting paid to make the flight, and therefore you've engaged in commercial flying (which can still apply even if you don't get paid, but log the time...subject of another discussion for another time). It's commercial flying, regardless of whether the customer paid for the leg or not.

Why then would a reposition leg be considered as "paid for" by a customer since they could care less where you go next, or where you are coming from?

Again, irrelevant, because YOU'RE getting paid. It's commercial flight time. However, regardless of whether a customer pays for a leg or not, this doesn't change the ability to operate under Part 91 when no persons or property are carried between point A and B for compensation or hire. A tail end ferry without the passenger or his posessions on board can be very easily performed under Part 91, regardless of whether the customer pays for that leg or not...because who is paying isn't relevant to the question of duty or the regulation under which the flight is operated.

Simply because you make a flight on behalf of a client doesn't make it a 135 flight.

My only question was if 91 commercial flying is included in the lookback to determine if 16 HR rest is required if you have flown 11+ hrs., however you got there.

Depends. If that 91 commercial flying was done by assignment of the certificate holder, then yes it is included in the lookback and does determine the prospective rest to follow the duty and flight operation.

If that 91 commercial flying was performed after your duty to act for the company had ended, then no, it's not part of the lookback (but does apply looking "forward," in that it applies to your next look back cycle)...and doesn't increase your prospective post-duty rest cycle.

 

[Raskal]

Good post avbug, well put.

The way we used to do it was how the POI worked it out, if any leg on the trip (assuming all under the same trip number) was 135, than the whole thing was governed under 135. This, of course, did not include the "deadhead home" leg which was an option. This seemed to keep us out of trouble.

 

[avbug]

The way we used to do it was how the POI worked it out, if any leg on the trip (assuming all under the same trip number) was 135, than the whole thing was governed under 135. This, of course, did not include the "deadhead home" leg which was an option.

With respect to duty and rest times, that's 100% correct.

With respect to the actual flight operation, even though you're acting under obligation to the certificate holder during duty hours, when flying an empty leg you can still operate under the rules of 91 (ie without conforming to opspec minimums, etc).