16 HR Rest requirement

[TransMach]

135.267

Avbug,

See quote:

You appear to be asking a question regarding the proverbial "tail end ferry." This occurs when your duty to act for the company has been completed, and you are free to act on your own. You are released. The company isn't asking you to make the flight. You may be out of duty time. You may have reached your flight time limits. However, you're stuck in timbucktoo and want to get home...the crew can elect to make the flight. The company can't ask the crew to make the flight, because that then becomes duty...something the company can't assign and the crew can't accept.


Endquote:

Why do you believe that when FAR 135 doesn't apply (no persons or property being transported for compensation or hire) the company can't assign and the crew can't accept a tail end ferry? It's a "91" operation and there is no restriction in FAR 91 (or other relevent labor code) that prevents the employer from making a work assignment. Yes, if the crew is fatigued they can not accept (insert FAR 61 and 91 fitness for duty requirements) but I miss where the company is prevented from making the assignment.

TransMach

 

[b350capt]

I would agree. It is perfectly legal to fly a 14 hour 135 duty day and 9.0 of 135 flying (2 pilot crew). Get out of the aircraft, get a cup of coffee and fly the owner of the aircraft (or other part 91) another 2 hours (11 hours total). If your company also manages the aircraft, they can assign you this part 91 duty as well.

This can be assigned by the certificate holder as part 91 flying (while not rest, it is not 135 flight duty, and therefore does not generate the need for rest). You would be required to have 10 hours of rest in 24 hours throughout and at the completion of your 135 flying. Once your last 135 leg is over, you can continue to fly assigned part 91 as long as you are not acting careless or reckless (fatigued for example), it is legal. You run into problems when it comes to your next 135 trip. Then all part 91 flying (commercial) is counted 10 in 24, and the part 91 flying assigned by the company cannot be counted as rest.

While not the popular view for crew, that is the standard that our current FSDO/POI and all other POI's I've talked to have agreed with. Some companies seem to abuse this, and come up with 16 hour duty day rules, etc or to make crews fly over 10 hours or 14 hour duty a standard practice. While potentially abusive, it's legal. As long as they don't count the assigned part 91 flying as rest.

 

[avbug]

It's a "91" operation and there is no restriction in FAR 91 (or other relevent labor code) that prevents the employer from making a work assignment.

No, not when the employer is a certificate holder under 135, directing it's crew who has performed duty under 135. Some employers would like to believe what you've described, but it just doesn't fly.

A certificate holder may not burn up a crew for 14 hours, then fly them as they like afterward simply by calling it Part 91. The certificate holder may not assign, and the crew may not accept...

Look it up.

Once your last 135 leg is over, you can continue to fly assigned part 91 as long as you are not acting careless or reckless (fatigued for example), it is legal.

Not if the certificate holder assigns it; the certificate holder is prohibited from doing so, and if the certificate holder does so, the crew is prevented from accepting the assignment.

 

[100-1/2]

Definitions-

"...For the purposes of this Part [135] transportation, not local in nature [company provided/supplied in the form of commercial tickets, company car/rental, Part 91 Operated Leg in Company a/c] cannot be considered in any rest period..."


There is a section in faa.gov that address the administrator's position in many of these regs through official 'interpretation' and is the basis and source for the new inspector handbooks and guidance material for ops and mx inspectors. Do a search locally in their site for FAR Interpretations. There it clearly spells out the 91 leg following a day of 135 ops is not counted toward the flight time limits for a particular day.

HOWEVER:

#1 - If you bend the airplane on the last 91 leg of a day ad that leg in fact carried you over the limit for the day, they will violate you and/or your company.


#2 - If this flight time when added to all other Commercial flying within a 24-hour period exceeds the 8/10 hour rule, and you bend the airplane on any 91/135 leg during that period, they will violate you and/or your company.


#3 - Company provided transportation as stated above cannot be considered in calculating any rest period. You must have 10 consecutive hours of rest in any 24 hour period. It is impossible to conduct 12 hours of duty regardless of flight time followed by any flight time that would not enable the crew to fly anywhere regardless of weather provisions, park the plane, debrief/check-out with dispatch within 14 hours of beginning that duty day.


#4 - ...and no crew member may accept... any assignment that will/[may] cause them to exceed 14 hours of duty time.

#5 - Operational Control. you cannot dictate what flights occur and to/from where unless you are listed in the Ops Specs as authorized to dispatch. In this case you are straddling the 'No certificate holder may and no crew member may accept.... statement.

good luck explaining this to your margin cheating boss. There are 20 other whippersnappers less informed than you ready to fly the plane for less money. BTW the FAA does not view ignorance or 'misunderstanding' of the regs as a valid deffense

100-1/2

 

[340drvr]

OK, let me preface by saying that I do not claim to know the absolute answers to these FAR issues whatsoever.

100-1/2, do you have a link to your interepretation reference? thanks

avbug - I guess I don't follow the logic of your stance regarding the flight/duty time regs. Using the phrase "No certificate holder may....." as the basis just doesn't make sense. Throughout Part 135, there are numerous regs that begin with those words, I won't list them all, but as a sampling, weather rules, autopilot restrictions, flight crewmember requirements (training, checkrides, etc.) all use "no certificate holder...." or "no person may operate......." etc.
If you go back to the Applicability paragraph beginning each subpart in 135, it says something like "This subpart prescribes... (limitations)...for operations conducted under this part."
Which, to me means those operations conducted under Part 135, but would not apply to Part 91 ops. Using your global criteria, any "ABC Flying Service" company, once a 135 certificate holder, would have to comply with 135 regs in every operation conducted, no matter what. That just doesn't make sense to me, plenty of companies have 135 charter aircraft and crew, Part 91 aircraft and crew, and various combinations through owner-leaseback, contract pilots, etc. Applying the "no certificate holder may...." criteria universally to all ops would mean that ABC Flying could never "assign" the 300 hour commercial-certificate line guy to go pick up parts in the owner's Part 91 Cessna 182 unless he was qualified under all the 135 rules? Doesn't add up.

(still confused).

 

[avbug]

It's really not that confusing. A certificate holder cannot simply comply with the duty, flight, and rest regulations of Part 135 for 14 hours, then move to Part 91 with no restrictions. It doesn't work like that. The certificate holder doesn't simply keep on trucking under Part 91 when all the duty and flight time has been used up.

By enjoying the privileges accorded the certificate holder, once the certificate holder has made the assignments (which must comply with 135), he or she can't assign beyond those restrictions, and the crew can't accept such an assignment.

 

[100-1/2]

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/2003/johnson.rtf

30 pages of historical letters of interpretation from the Counsel's office at the FAA. you can backup off the link to the counsel's search page and enter anything in the string search like flight time, duty period, rest period, etc. leave the year blank for more results.

The letter is principally re: 121 ops scenarios. However, the body of the letter details several
reflections on 135 scenarios. Footnotes throughout also reference other letters of interpretations you can include in the year and string searched to find
specific letter references.

Print it and post it on your duty rooms' information and communication boards. May also provide a copy in your CP's inbox. Any more lately, these are green behind the ears "yes" men that will do and believe whatever the "boss" says is rule of thumb.

Good luck out there. 100-1/2

It is not defined in this letter, However, it would seem I was incorrect in stating 91 legs following 135 are not considered in the 8-hour limit for that day, but total cumulative across a 24 hour period where portions of 2 duty periods may accrue flying time. Seems this time only accounts toward the larger period limits. I believe they reference quarterly and annual limits. I do recall another letter in 2000-2002 that contradicted this, specifying a 24-hr period scenario where flight time spanning 2 duty periods separated by a 10 hour Rest period could potentially accrue flight time in excess of the 8 hours for a 24 hour period. I will look back and investigate if a policy shift occurred since then to the 2005 letter where times only account toward the larger periodical limitations.

100-1/2

 

[avbug]

Regularly scheduled crews can overfly the cumulative times so long as it occurs during a regularly scheduled duty period; the hour meter for crew flight time limitations resets based on the day, vs. the 24 hour lookback perod for unscheduled crews. You need to differentiate between which type of crew scheduling to which it is you're referring when considering cumulative flight times.

That's the principal advantage to a certificate holder in using regularly scheduled duty periods for a crew.

 

[100-1/2]

135.265(a)4 - 8 Hours during any 24 Consecutive Hours for a flight crew consisting of one Pilot





135.267(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed—
(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(2) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.



Clock stops after 24 hours from first hour flown.



Plain as day in black and white.



100-1/2

 

[Viffer]

135.267(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed—
(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(2) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.



Clock stops after 24 hours from first hour flown.



Plain as day in black and white.



100-1/2

Yep. Any 91 after 135 is added in, no question about it. Also for any of you guys doing 91 end legs that will knowingly exceed 10 hours, you had better be closing out the 135 trip and getting a new 91 release number from the certificate holder. And just as a note, I personally asked our POI once if the FAA/FSDO considered flight or block time for these limitations. He told me in person that they total BLOCK time in what counts towards the 10 in 24. That can be a big difference when you have a day with a lot of stops, but it's something that everyone should clarify with their POI's because you could be digging yourselves into a very deep hole with the FAA, no matter what a charter DO says.