13 days off per quarter?

[brokeflyer]

yes i know that.....but a lot of operators don't do that. Part 91k finally really put it in writing and fixed that. That is why we are pre-briefed.

But back to the point. This guy needs his 13 rest periods of 24 hours per qtr....just don't fly, tell them you are not legal, if they don't like it then they can ask their POI to trim a little fat off the regs. I can see how my original post was a bit vague. If they tell him to check in from home at 0600 then "officially" that isnt a rest period. But a lot of operators don't do that. The small operators aren't subject to that because they are unscheduled, that is why they do it "you are off until we call you" which is crap and unsafe. I did it for 16 years and suprised i'm not dead yet......sucks

The original poster hasnt described if he is 135 unscheduled or scheduled.

 

[woog315]

yes i know that.....but a lot of operators don't do that. Part 91k finally really put it in writing and fixed that. That is why we are pre-briefed.

But back to the point. This guy needs his 13 rest periods of 24 hours per qtr....just don't fly, tell them you are not legal, if they don't like it then they can ask their POI to trim a little fat off the regs. I can see how my original post was a bit vague. If they tell him to check in from home at 0600 then "officially" that isnt a rest period. But a lot of operators don't do that. The small operators aren't subject to that because they are unscheduled, that is why they do it "you are off until we call you" which is crap and unsafe. I did it for 16 years and suprised i'm not dead yet......sucks

The original poster hasnt described if he is 135 unscheduled or scheduled.

I work for a pretty bottom of the barrel small 135 unscheduled operator and what you're saying is wrong. The OPs company is breaking a rule that most companies follow. If you're on call, you're not on rest- period. You should have 13 scheduled days off per quarter. They cannot retroactively make days where you didn't work but were on call your days off. If you worked for a company for 16 years with no scheduled days off... sorry, but you're completely retarded.

 

[brokeflyer]

you miss read my post. I had every other weekend off.

the "dumb" part was sitting at home "off" then get a call and go for 14 hours.

that is the norm.

 

[rice]

you miss read my post. I had every other weekend off.

the "dumb" part was sitting at home "off" then get a call and go for 14 hours.

that is the norm.

broke,
YOU are missing the point. It doesn't matter what YOU did for how many years. And according to the FAA lawyers it doesn't matter whether it's scheduled or unscheduled, REST MUST BE PROSPECTIVE.
Not saying your example isn't what actually happens in the real world but it is technically in violation of the legal interpretation of the regs.
Just because you did it that way and it is/was the norm, doesn't make it legal or correct.

 

[rice]

WRONG!!!!

it don't say that in the reg......it says (f) The certificate holder must provide each flight crewmember at least 13 rest periods of at least 24 consecutive hours each in each calendar quarter.

That is for "unscheduled".

You are thinking of "scheduled" operations......those need to be prospective.

I know what your saying though, it's the same as leaving a pilot at home waiting for a trip, they call that time "rest" but in reality if you are available to be called then you are not "off"...you are "on".

They just never enforce it because of all the grey areas.

I wasn't referencing the reg, rather the FAA's legal interpretation of it. (see link posted previously)
And I am quite aware of what I am thinking. No I was not thinking "scheduled". Best not to assume.

 

[brokeflyer]

i think we're talking about 2 diffrent things.

I know the 13 days off are to be in advance. But a lotta places dont do that.

What i was talking about was sitting at home "available" to be called but off duty until that call comes. That is very common because all they have to show is at least 10 hours off within the last 24 hours by the planned completion of a trip.

That was really crappy duty.

 

[gulfstream2345]

Scheduled time off

From a former Inspector..... Legal opinions have proven that the 13 days/quarter must be scheduled off in advance. If the company gives you more days off than that then you are doing great. But keep in mind, they have to give you those 13 days off. If the company doesn't comply with that and you continue to fly then you too are in violation. One thing you learn at training with the FAA is that any deliberate violation of the FARs=revocation, or at least the recommendation of revocation. The 135 certificate holder might not get that but that is what would be recommended for the pilot. Do you really want to take that chance? Revocation means all the money and hard work to get those ratings is now wasted as you will lose all of your certificates for one year and you will have to re-apply, take new writtens and new checkrides for any ratings you want to get.

The FAA, me in particuliar when I was one, took the 13 days off very seriously and when we found a blatant violation we took serious action. Even without an accident or incident then what happens if a disgruntled employee drops a dime on the company. The pilots that fly without the required scheduled days off will all be in violation. I know of one company in the Houston area that totally disregards the rule and the pilots complain all the time but apparently not to the FAA.

I would say that if the company isn't complying with that rule then it is highly likely that there are other serious issues. If they don't comply then you best run as quickly as possible to the next job. Even if you leave, you will still be at risk forever if the FAA tries to do a violation. I know that is not good news but it is true.

 

[rice]

i think we're talking about 2 diffrent things.

I know the 13 days off are to be in advance. But a lotta places dont do that.

What i was talking about was sitting at home "available" to be called but off duty until that call comes. That is very common because all they have to show is at least 10 hours off within the last 24 hours by the planned completion of a trip.

That was really crappy duty.

This situation must also be prospective. If you are REQUIRED to be "available" then you are NOT in rest. If you are not in rest, then the clock is running. Then you will be "available" until you must go back into rest to meet the 10 hrs off in the last 24. The only way to comply with the regulation is to have a mutually understood period of rest before that period begins.
Again, I know it doesn't happen that way a most places in the real world but thats how it's SUPPOSED to work.

 

[brokeflyer]

This situation must also be prospective. If you are REQUIRED to be "available" then you are NOT in rest. If you are not in rest, then the clock is running. Then you will be "available" until you must go back into rest to meet the 10 hrs off in the last 24. The only way to comply with the regulation is to have a mutually understood period of rest before that period begins.
Again, I know it doesn't happen that way a most places in the real world but thats how it's SUPPOSED to work.

yup...its unfortunate.

 

[414Flyer]

If you couldnt drink a beer that day on the chance you could get a flight, then you were not off.

 

[BushwickBill]

yes i know that.....but a lot of operators don't do that. Part 91k finally really put it in writing and fixed that. That is why we are pre-briefed.

But back to the point. This guy needs his 13 rest periods of 24 hours per qtr....just don't fly, tell them you are not legal, if they don't like it then they can ask their POI to trim a little fat off the regs. I can see how my original post was a bit vague. If they tell him to check in from home at 0600 then "officially" that isnt a rest period. But a lot of operators don't do that. The small operators aren't subject to that because they are unscheduled, that is why they do it "you are off until we call you" which is crap and unsafe. I did it for 16 years and suprised i'm not dead yet......sucks

The original poster hasnt described if he is 135 unscheduled or scheduled.

We are unscheduled. Unfortunitly a coworker is reading this thread. I'm sure you can guess who. So I can't really elaborate on how things are going.

There has been a little progress and if anything I can show my paper trail to the FAA if they do try and revoke my ticket. I can at least show that I requested that things are done the correct way.

I dont suppose the FAA would take the fact that there are no other jobs to run to into account and that I tried to fix things at my existing job if there is any kind of action taken?

 

[brokeflyer]

what happens is companies use the "10 hours of rest preceding a flight" trick.

You are off until they call you out......as long as that call comes 10 hours after your last flight then it's "legal".....safe?....not a chance. But that is the ay it's done. 91K fixed that loophole.

 

[BEfly]

If you couldnt drink a beer that day on the chance you could get a flight, then you were not off.

Thats how I see it. And thats what I say to settle disputes.
It's difficult to handle these situations.... I know. You need to stand up and enforce the law but at the same time you don't want to bite the hand that feeds for fear of being put on the street. Not a good thing these days. I know alot of guys who are in similar situations currently among several operators. We used to be too. We have a new DO now who is by the book and the management/nonpilot/bean counters butt heads with him all the time. I'm wondering when he will cave.

I know why guys don't report this crap to the FAA: They fear they will get raked over the coals. They may get violated and fired.

Around a year ago our flight department got rocked by the FAA. (You'd of thought we crashed a plane or at least bent one). This was all about paperwork, and the POI cracked down on us. Security program wasn't up to snuff, sloppy records, weight and balance forms, etc. All these things needed revamped, I agreed. You know what their number one beef with us was? DUTY LOGS. All this put a damper on operations for a while and cost management a lot of $$$. Every things been peachy since. Not too hard considering we are doing 1/3 of the flying we were doing last year. We've been a well oiled machine. But I can smell the rain! The management storm clouds rolling in on this deal, flying is picking back up and management wants to cash in. Owners are getting restless and putting pressure on the department, but the pilots need to watch their a$$es. Its been months since the run-in with the feds and our POI has turned another direction, but like the mentality of most people in this country, they (the guys that write the checks upstairs) have pretty much forgotten. Pilots refuse to fly, planes don't move, clients get pissed, money is lost, management threatens pilots, pilots cave. We lose.

Be safe. Be legal.

BTW, I have 3 friends who are very talented pilots who are dealing with violations in the last 4 months. For stupid stuff. Landing w/o clearance, TFR bust, and an altitude bust. A 4th just got a DUI yesterday. Altitude guy is gonna be alright.

 

[woog315]

This thread is confusing because brokeflyer seems to be making the same argument like 5 different ways. You're saying we're reading you wrong, but you are specifically addressing the 13 days of rest rule and said "you do realize that if you are "on-call" 24/7 and they dont use you, that day just became a scheduled day off." but also say you didnt say that.... and the thread is clearly a question about the 13 day rule and how it functions, but anyways---

having been on exceptionally long benders with little or no sleep, I agree with brokeflyer, in spirit, regarding the 10 hours of rest rule, but there is no way to make on-call flying workable by strictly interpreting the 10 hours of rest in a 24hr period rule, I'm not aware of any company that does- though some get closer than others(like 12 hours on call, 12 hours off every day... but still, what happens if you get called out on a 6 hour trip on hour 9 of being on call? you bust the regs if strictly interpreted)

 

[brokeflyer]

I said there are operators that do that practice. If they don't use you then that is an off day. A lot of them do that. Is it right? no. They can also call you fri night and say "there are no trips tomorrow, you are off"...there is 1 day towards the 12.

If you get a 6 hour trip at hour 9 of being "ON" duty then you cannot do the trip. That is why most operators just leave you off duty and call you when they need you. The way the regs read, all they need to show is 10 hours off preceding.

Where I worked, I had every other weekend OFF, no pager, phone off the hook, etc. That took care of the 13 days per qtr problem. But a lot of places dont do that, and if you deny that it happens then you really need to come back to reality.

Part 91k fixed all these problems, it would be nice to see them fix 135 the same way. It may save some lives.

 

[woog315]

I think there are very, very few places that don't offer the 13 pre-scheduled days off. The 10 hour of rest in a 24hr period is broken by essentially everyone.

We've derailed significantly, but the original question is about the 13 days off- as far as I know the Fed enforces this one pretty strictly and there is little to no room for grey area interpretations. If his company isn't providing him with that, he should be on the phone with his DO getting it resolved pronto, and if they want to start threatening his job etc- go to the FAA...

 

[brokeflyer]

yes he needs to do that.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Bushwhack Bill.....send me a PM. I have an FAA document that I will forward to you. It will DEFINTELY give you some ammunition. Anybody else that wants a copy of it, send me a PM and you'll get it.

The 135 regs are HORRIBLE, and they need a revamping way more than the 121 regs.

 

[pilotyip]

You have to apply the beer rule, if you can not drink beer for 16 hours, it is not duty free time.

 

[woog315]

You have to apply the beer rule, if you can not drink beer for 16 hours, it is not duty free time.

This is an old thread, but does USA Jet work that way? I was under the impression you guys were on call 24 hrs just like the rest of the on-demand world, even though regs specifically forbid it.