13 days off per quarter?

[BushwickBill]

Hey there.

I am trying to negotiate some time off into my schedule and would like some help finding the 13 days off per quarter rule.

I am pretty hard working and have really pulled through for the company so I feel comfortable asking for a better deal in terms of time off.

However it would be nice to have some legal backing for the issue. We haven't even come close to 13 days of per quarter over at least the last 2 quarters.

My understanding of the rule is that the days are not retroactive. IE they cant say oh well we didn't call yesterday so that was a day off.

Thanks for your help.

 

[JakeSnake]

135.267(f)

 

[BushwickBill]

135.267(f)

JakeSnake. Cheers bro. That helps a lot. I am flying with the D.O. today and brought up my concern about the legality of my schedule.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2009/Mayors.pdf

The above PDF is very usefull if anyone tells you a day off is retroactive. IE we didn't call you yesterday therefore you got a day off.

 

[gret]

You're brave. Given how many pilots are looking for jobs, I would have waited for a different time to discuss the issue.

 

[brokeflyer]

they cant assign you and you can't ACCEPT that duty.....you are liable for that. Better say something before someone rats you out.

If they give you crap about it then it aint worth working there.....

 

[BushwickBill]

gret and brokeflyer are pretty much representing the two polar opposites of how you can look at this.

i requested time off in a calm rational manner. i didn't make any unrealistic demands and didn't ask for immediate action. I asked that I could have as many days off in a row as possible. so we will see what happens.

i am sitting on the fence and trying to take some positive action. although I am leaning more to the side of brokeflyer. i doubt the FAA will do anything positive to help the plight of pilots. I feel that I am however.

I feel like I am doing something positive to help aviation in general. I hope I am rewarded by doing a job I really enjoy and having a life outside of that job.

And brokeflyer I would love to work at Netjets or anyplace that had work rules HR or an employee manual. I dont. I hope that by trying to find a balance I will get skills that will take me there. without falling asleep behind the wheel after a ********************ty charter in ********************ty weather.

gret ******************** yeah im scared bro. tons of guys on the street. plus all the posers who will do it for free. lets just say im a student of history and i am aware of the moment i am in. i still have a backbone but i am very very concerned.

we'll see.

 

[imacdog]

You may not have an HR department and defined work rules but FARs are FARs. You wouldn't bust minimums because the job market is tight, would you?

 

[brokeflyer]

you can always find another job, gettin all your ratings back after the FAA takes them for violations?

a bit tougher.

what is your normal schedule anyway?......

 

[ultrarunner]

You don't need to request time-off that is provided for by the regs!

But if your company is busting this rule, then they are also likely forging the duty-time reports, as your POI would easily catch the discrepancy.

Sounds pretty dirt-bag to me!

 

[gret]

If you being forced to break the regs, don't do it.

However, it appears that you are trying to negotiate a "better deal" than what you already have, rather than getting your employer in compliance.

 

[BushwickBill]

Huh?

If you being forced to break the regs, don't do it.

However, it appears that you are trying to negotiate a "better deal" than what you already have, rather than getting your employer in compliance.

Can you please clarify gret? First of all I'm not sure what kind of deal I have at the moment. Of course more time off is better in a lot of ways. Primarily if I am ever asked about my duty times I will know I am in compliance with all of the regs. Also, I wont fall asleep on the way home from work behind the wheel or suffer from other forms of stress and fatigue if I can plan my rest schedule. This is most likely why the rule is in place.

I am only asking for the FAA minimum scheduled time off per quarter. Again please let me know how this is a "better deal" or even a "good deal" to begin with.

 

[BushwickBill]

I will try and answer everyone's posts.

I can always find another job? Not likely not at this point in our countries history anyway.

In terms of operating legally: I think Im doing a good job so far. I try and stay up to date on the 135 regs and I am always trying to complete the mission safely and legally with customer service in mind.

I am of course always learning and this is part of the learning process. I am asking that the company abide by the 135 rule that requires I have 13 scheduled days off per quarter. I'm asking in a professional manner without making demands or threats. I am also using it as an opportunity to show management how hard I have been working and will continue to do so.

Dirt bag? Well we are a small 135 operation and have not let any pilots go during hard times. So I think we are a good company. However we have had to change a lot of our practices lately to make money and this has resulted in a terrible schedule for the pilots.

Basically we have a 24/7 on call schedule at all times. The duty times are recorded by pilots. The POI has inspected our duty times often and has not mentioned scheduled time off or any important questions. Or my company is lying to the POI and the pilots about what is being reported to the FAA. I doubt this. I just think these rules are not enforced.

Also, do you think the FAA would get me in trouble for duty regs? I have tried to make a change in a challenging economy without any support from the other pilots. I haven't even told any of them I was going to ask. The last time I did they asked me not to say anything because they are worried about the economy. So I am going at it alone for now.

 

[Andy Neill]

Have you considered asking, in any given week, "When will be my scheduled day off in the next week?". When they say none for 11 consecutive weeks, then the next week ask "Which one of the next 14 days do you want me to be on flight/standby because the other 13 days I will be taking off."

 

[brokeflyer]

you do realize that if you are "on-call" 24/7 and they dont use you, that day just became a scheduled day off.

 

[gret]

Your original post said-

"I am pretty hard working and have really pulled through for the company so I feel comfortable asking for a better deal in terms of time off."

I read this to mean you were getting your time off, but you wanted something better. If I misunderstood, I'm sorry.

 

[rice]

you do realize that if you are "on-call" 24/7 and they dont use you, that day just became a scheduled day off.

WRONG!!!!!!
Scheduled days off MUST be PROSPECTIVE not retrospective. I don't have the desire to find the reference as it has been re-hashed, here and on other boards, numerous times.
But LEGALLY your statement is false. However, I will agree that in practice this happens all the time.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I am only asking for the FAA minimum scheduled time off per quarter.

Keep a paper trail in the form of email communications. Nobody should be in a position where they have to "ask" for their minimum required days off. If the questions are dodged or go unanswered after a period of time which you feel is appropriate, go ask the POI to help clarify the issue.

 

[brokeflyer]

WRONG!!!!!!
Scheduled days off MUST be PROSPECTIVE not retrospective. I don't have the desire to find the reference as it has been re-hashed, here and on other boards, numerous times.
But LEGALLY your statement is false. However, I will agree that in practice this happens all the time.

WRONG!!!!

it don't say that in the reg......it says (f) The certificate holder must provide each flight crewmember at least 13 rest periods of at least 24 consecutive hours each in each calendar quarter.

That is for "unscheduled".

You are thinking of "scheduled" operations......those need to be prospective.

I know what your saying though, it's the same as leaving a pilot at home waiting for a trip, they call that time "rest" but in reality if you are available to be called then you are not "off"...you are "on".

They just never enforce it because of all the grey areas.

 

[veneratio]

WRONG!!!!

it don't say that in the reg......it says (f) The certificate holder must provide each flight crewmember at least 13 rest periods of at least 24 consecutive hours each in each calendar quarter.

That is for "unscheduled".

You are thinking of "scheduled" operations......those need to be prospective.

I know what your saying though, it's the same as leaving a pilot at home waiting for a trip, they call that time "rest" but in reality if you are available to be called then you are not "off"...you are "on".

They just never enforce it because of all the grey areas.

"We have consistently interpreted
that if a standby or reserve pilot has a present responsibility to work if called, then he is on
duty because he is not free from restraint. Thus, the time a flight crewmember is on reserve
or standby status, with an obligation to report for a flight assignment if called or paged, is
not rest."

 

[Hamburger]

you do realize that if you are "on-call" 24/7 and they dont use you, that day just became a scheduled day off.

WRONG!!!!

Hey guys, Bushwick has already put this one to 'rest'. He even posted a link.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...009/Mayors.pdf

 

[brokeflyer]

yes i know that.....but a lot of operators don't do that. Part 91k finally really put it in writing and fixed that. That is why we are pre-briefed.

But back to the point. This guy needs his 13 rest periods of 24 hours per qtr....just don't fly, tell them you are not legal, if they don't like it then they can ask their POI to trim a little fat off the regs. I can see how my original post was a bit vague. If they tell him to check in from home at 0600 then "officially" that isnt a rest period. But a lot of operators don't do that. The small operators aren't subject to that because they are unscheduled, that is why they do it "you are off until we call you" which is crap and unsafe. I did it for 16 years and suprised i'm not dead yet......sucks

The original poster hasnt described if he is 135 unscheduled or scheduled.

 

[woog315]

yes i know that.....but a lot of operators don't do that. Part 91k finally really put it in writing and fixed that. That is why we are pre-briefed.

But back to the point. This guy needs his 13 rest periods of 24 hours per qtr....just don't fly, tell them you are not legal, if they don't like it then they can ask their POI to trim a little fat off the regs. I can see how my original post was a bit vague. If they tell him to check in from home at 0600 then "officially" that isnt a rest period. But a lot of operators don't do that. The small operators aren't subject to that because they are unscheduled, that is why they do it "you are off until we call you" which is crap and unsafe. I did it for 16 years and suprised i'm not dead yet......sucks

The original poster hasnt described if he is 135 unscheduled or scheduled.

I work for a pretty bottom of the barrel small 135 unscheduled operator and what you're saying is wrong. The OPs company is breaking a rule that most companies follow. If you're on call, you're not on rest- period. You should have 13 scheduled days off per quarter. They cannot retroactively make days where you didn't work but were on call your days off. If you worked for a company for 16 years with no scheduled days off... sorry, but you're completely retarded.

 

[brokeflyer]

you miss read my post. I had every other weekend off.

the "dumb" part was sitting at home "off" then get a call and go for 14 hours.

that is the norm.

 

[rice]

you miss read my post. I had every other weekend off.

the "dumb" part was sitting at home "off" then get a call and go for 14 hours.

that is the norm.

broke,
YOU are missing the point. It doesn't matter what YOU did for how many years. And according to the FAA lawyers it doesn't matter whether it's scheduled or unscheduled, REST MUST BE PROSPECTIVE.
Not saying your example isn't what actually happens in the real world but it is technically in violation of the legal interpretation of the regs.
Just because you did it that way and it is/was the norm, doesn't make it legal or correct.

 

[rice]

WRONG!!!!

it don't say that in the reg......it says (f) The certificate holder must provide each flight crewmember at least 13 rest periods of at least 24 consecutive hours each in each calendar quarter.

That is for "unscheduled".

You are thinking of "scheduled" operations......those need to be prospective.

I know what your saying though, it's the same as leaving a pilot at home waiting for a trip, they call that time "rest" but in reality if you are available to be called then you are not "off"...you are "on".

They just never enforce it because of all the grey areas.

I wasn't referencing the reg, rather the FAA's legal interpretation of it. (see link posted previously)
And I am quite aware of what I am thinking. No I was not thinking "scheduled". Best not to assume.

 

[brokeflyer]

i think we're talking about 2 diffrent things.

I know the 13 days off are to be in advance. But a lotta places dont do that.

What i was talking about was sitting at home "available" to be called but off duty until that call comes. That is very common because all they have to show is at least 10 hours off within the last 24 hours by the planned completion of a trip.

That was really crappy duty.

 

[gulfstream2345]

Scheduled time off

From a former Inspector..... Legal opinions have proven that the 13 days/quarter must be scheduled off in advance. If the company gives you more days off than that then you are doing great. But keep in mind, they have to give you those 13 days off. If the company doesn't comply with that and you continue to fly then you too are in violation. One thing you learn at training with the FAA is that any deliberate violation of the FARs=revocation, or at least the recommendation of revocation. The 135 certificate holder might not get that but that is what would be recommended for the pilot. Do you really want to take that chance? Revocation means all the money and hard work to get those ratings is now wasted as you will lose all of your certificates for one year and you will have to re-apply, take new writtens and new checkrides for any ratings you want to get.

The FAA, me in particuliar when I was one, took the 13 days off very seriously and when we found a blatant violation we took serious action. Even without an accident or incident then what happens if a disgruntled employee drops a dime on the company. The pilots that fly without the required scheduled days off will all be in violation. I know of one company in the Houston area that totally disregards the rule and the pilots complain all the time but apparently not to the FAA.

I would say that if the company isn't complying with that rule then it is highly likely that there are other serious issues. If they don't comply then you best run as quickly as possible to the next job. Even if you leave, you will still be at risk forever if the FAA tries to do a violation. I know that is not good news but it is true.

 

[rice]

i think we're talking about 2 diffrent things.

I know the 13 days off are to be in advance. But a lotta places dont do that.

What i was talking about was sitting at home "available" to be called but off duty until that call comes. That is very common because all they have to show is at least 10 hours off within the last 24 hours by the planned completion of a trip.

That was really crappy duty.

This situation must also be prospective. If you are REQUIRED to be "available" then you are NOT in rest. If you are not in rest, then the clock is running. Then you will be "available" until you must go back into rest to meet the 10 hrs off in the last 24. The only way to comply with the regulation is to have a mutually understood period of rest before that period begins.
Again, I know it doesn't happen that way a most places in the real world but thats how it's SUPPOSED to work.

 

[brokeflyer]

This situation must also be prospective. If you are REQUIRED to be "available" then you are NOT in rest. If you are not in rest, then the clock is running. Then you will be "available" until you must go back into rest to meet the 10 hrs off in the last 24. The only way to comply with the regulation is to have a mutually understood period of rest before that period begins.
Again, I know it doesn't happen that way a most places in the real world but thats how it's SUPPOSED to work.

yup...its unfortunate.

 

[414Flyer]

If you couldnt drink a beer that day on the chance you could get a flight, then you were not off.