1108 Union Leadership Abandons Hostages

[Mike Jenvey]

<<<< I had a whole page of an explanation typed out and it all dumped when I clicked SUBMIT.>>>>

Had same problem on this site & others too. Top tip - either copy your text before hitting SUBMIT, or, use a Word/text document to compose your reply & then copy/paste to the forum reply window. Either way, you don't lose things.

 

[glasspilot]

I've used the back button on my browser. It reloads the page with you text still there.

 

[Fedmagnet]

I tried the back button but it came back to a blank page.
I started off with a short reply and started getting excited and got into it and lost track of time. :0 I have done this to myself a few times.
The copy and paste is a good method but I forgot again.

It was a work of art! :cartman:

 

[DUATS]

So if we were paid less, the company may not lay off employee's? Really? So they are going to pay people to just sit around and do nothing? If a company is overstaffed why would the keep paying idled workers?
I would be like a contractor paying carpenters (sub's) when there is no building to be done.
I just don't understand the logic.
.

GM did exactly that for years. It was called the "jobs bank".

Didn't seem to work so well for them. Union membership at GM dropped from 600,000 to 60,000 before the bankruptcy. It will be about 40,000 after.

 

[DUATS]

You need to read. My complaint isn't about furloughing in order of seniority, although I do believe that when it's all about survival I do want the best around me.

My complaint about how unions handle industry downturns is that they will sacrifice the bottom third of the seniority and retain the high pay with overtime rather than not take overtime and allow more jobs to be saved by opening the contract.

The saddest part of all is the sacrifice the rest of the company needs to make to pay for an expensive CBA when times get tough. Everybody else has their pay cut first, then the layoffs happen while all the union members drain company resources.

Yes, unions suck.

I think you both get a bit of this right. Unions are often needed to ensure that when business circumstances require a furlough that it is done in an orderly and fair fashion.

But I think it is also true that in SOME CASES senior employees cajole junior members to vote the union in so they can see what they hope will be a big raise. But as soon as the union is voted in, there is a move towards protecting the top, not the entire membership. This has been seen not only in aviation, but other industries. I remember years ago a mining company offered the union the choice: 20% pay cut, or 20% job cut. 80% of the membership voted to cut the jobs. That isn't a truly union mentality.

It would be much easier to support a union if I knew all the union members would support the junior guys.

 

[brokeflyer]

yup that may very well be true. It's a shame that greedy management causes that to happen. It's sad that we need a union in this industry since the pilots are the ones that directly do all the work.

 

[DUATS]

yup that may very well be true. It's a shame that greedy management causes that to happen. It's sad that we need a union in this industry since the pilots are the ones that directly do all the work.

But when management tries to screw labor and push comes to shove, do you think most senior frac pilots would "look out for number one", or look out for the entire membership?

 

[Helmsalee]

As would most junior or middle seniority frac pilots. Or any pilots or any person for that matter. For me it would be God, family, country, profession (call it job, company or whatever). Perhaps you would rearrange the first 3, but I doubt the last would move up.

BTW, it is not always senior screwing junior. I have seen junior throw senior under the bus because they had more power (read votes) and could. I have also seen all work together for the betterment of everyone and this is what we need.

 

[TurboHonda]

As would most junior or middle seniority frac pilots. Or any pilots or any person for that matter. For me it would be God, family, country, profession (call it job, company or whatever). Perhaps you would rearrange the first 3, but I doubt the last would move up.

BTW, it is not always senior screwing junior. I have seen junior throw senior under the bus because they had more power (read votes) and could. I have also seen all work together for the betterment of everyone and this is what we need.

You just described why a contract takes forever to achieve, it it’s achieved at all. Instead of having any semblance of solidarity the pilot group is made up of a bunch of individuals justifying their own selfish agenda. They’re too quick to join a “brotherhood” but don’t really consider their “brothers” brothers and certainly don’t act like a brother themselves.

They fall back on clichés like God, Family, etc., but don’t think of their “brother” as family.

In my generation there was a thing called self respect. It took precedence over almost everything. It couldn’t be bought, taught, faked, or sold. You either had it or you didn’t. Too many pilots don’t even know what I’m talking about. Management knows what I’m talking about and they use it (or the lack of it) to their own advantage.

 

[brokeflyer]

yup....and it could all be avoided if management didn't try to rape a company into the ground and screw its employees.

Unfortunate, but until they treat everyone fair, this is the world we live in.