Retired Airline... 135 pilots

[pilothouston123]

I want some help with this. I know that I will be in there place someday.

I have been flying 135 for 5 years and I am noticing more and more retired airline pilots joining up. Or hagning on. We have one guy that can't fly our airplane. Scares the shoot out of the passengers. But the guy can brown nose the DO like a professional.

I try to show him respect, and I won't stoop to his level and set him up. But I just want to tell him its time to hang em up. I know that is gunna hurt like nothing else....

I can deal with him, I just can't stand the way he shrugs off responsiblitites and brown noses. Plus he has hands like bricks, and flys the plane like a wheel barrell.

Thanks for letting me vent.

 

[climbhappy]

what kind of plane is it?

Did he fly boxes? boxes don't don't complain!

The ability to articulate and relate well with authority figures is something that comes with age and experience. Sounds like you're maybe younger and don't have alot of experience dealing with folks in the corporate world. "BS'ing" is an art form and is pretty much how our business world operates. Don't be offended by someone who is charismatic. I think you're intimidated by this guy? look at your own words.

 

[pilothouston123]

It is a be20. He lands is sideways and on the nose wheel once. He flew heavy jets. I don't have a problem sucking up and dealing with my DO and Cheif pilot. I got a raise before he did and we started on the same day. I am 43 years old and yes that is younger than him at 63. I am not intimidated at all by him.

The question is: When is it time to hang em up? This is a subjective question. I expect a wide range of responses. Not attacts on my personality.

Thanks for your response

 

[Tyro]

The question is: When is it time to hang em up?

Fascinating question. But I guess that, like Climbhappy, I have questions first for the questioner:

1. Is this pilot properly certificated and current? Pass his last check?
2. Is he dangerous? Not just poor airmanship - but dangerous, in decision making etc.
3. Do you attribute this pilot's described deficient airmanship to his age?
4. Suppose this were a young chap - would you do the same as you are proposing? Or some other remedy?
5. Suppose he were 55 and your CA - what then?

(But I am quite pleased no one has yet called this older chap a "scab" - quite yet.) J

 

[pilothouston123]

Those are great questions. The only real dangerous this thing is is landings, Sidways on narrow runways. But I must take your point well, he might be poor airmanship even if he was younger.

Great point of view to share.

 

[Tyro]

Houston, Your query is actually a very complex one, that’s why those five questions.

At its core of your post is the question: what are the limits of my responsibility; where is that “boundary where I end and the next chap begins.” And a lot of where that line is has to do with ones’ role (line pilot v CP, etc). So it is no simple question, there are no pat answers. I know what I would do. But that is by no means the “right” answer.

As to “when to hang ‘em up” – here’s a guess. I find that with age, things change; sometimes in their importance, sometimes the “why” of their being important. (Things definitely get better though.) But I think that for most aviators there comes a point where going sailing or golfing or something else is just as rewarding (and possibly less demanding) as piloting an airplane – and so you “hang ‘em up.” Usually this happens well before one is physically or cognitively not up to the task. But it’s a guess.

 

[soarby007]

Pardner I have the same problem with a retired airline guy. he is hamfisted, can't figure out how to file a flight plan, preflight, busts altitude, headings, doesn't know the aircraft (flunked the type ride the first time), blames any problems on someone else not keeping him upright. He has plenty of money, I guess, at least that what he brags about. I could go on and on. Drives me nuts. They keep him because he is cheap to hire.

 

[Tyro]

Sounds like an idjit.
Glad I’m not flying with him.
Good Luck, Compadres.

 

[flyin4pennies]

It's just plane stupid

Pardner I have the same problem with a retired airline guy. he is hamfisted, can't figure out how to file a flight plan, preflight, busts altitude, headings, doesn't know the aircraft (flunked the type ride the first time), blames any problems on someone else not keeping him upright. He has plenty of money, I guess, at least that what he brags about. I could go on and on. Drives me nuts. They keep him because he is cheap to hire.

The insurance companies only look at a persons' total/multi/turbine time to determine how qualified they are. In fact some of these retired airline captains haven't flown anything smaller than a 767 for over 10 years. They haven't flown anything that dosen't have a full autopilot coupled to an FMS and autothrottles. They haven't filed a flt plan or had to make a dissicion that didn't involve an MEL, FOM, or FSM in years. WHY DO INSURANCE COMPANIES BELIEVE THEY ARE ALWAYS BETTER QUALIFIED??

I have all the respect in the world for these guys. They are the best at what they do, Capt of an airline, a very important job with a lot of responsibility, but it does not mean that they are the best choice to fly a King Air.

 

[Tyro]

Good Thought.

I prolly shouldn't say he's an idjit.
Different kind of flying.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I agree. You are specialized at what you do. Flying a 777 is yippie doodaa great and all, but it doesn't mean you can fly a Kingair or Learjet. When was the last time any airline guys shot an NDB approach, or did an NDB hold? Made a command decision without the input of 8 different manuals and individuals? Actually hand flew an approach down to minimums NOT in a simulator? Dealt with a passenger? Filed a flight plan? Figured out a fuel order? I've done both, and I can tell ya that there is a LOT less personal responsibility in airline flying. All you do is dwiyve da playne. (Pushing Tin reference there)

No disrespect intended, but it's just two totally different deals.

 

[mobie]

CapnVegetto

I agree. You are specialized at what you do. Flying a 777 is yippie doodaa great and all, but it doesn't mean you can fly a Kingair or Learjet. When was the last time any airline guys shot an NDB approach, or did an NDB hold? Made a command decision without the input of 8 different manuals and individuals? Actually hand flew an approach down to minimums NOT in a simulator? Dealt with a passenger? Filed a flight plan? Figured out a fuel order? I've done both, and I can tell ya that there is a LOT less personal responsibility in airline flying. All you do is dwiyve da playne. (Pushing Tin reference there)

No disrespect intended, but it's just two totally different deals.

Airline pilots fly most approaches hand flown down to Cat 1, real low app. must be done on autopilot( Cat 2 or 3). Lots of NDBs and holds, deal with pax almost every flight. File flight plans all the time when you are in some 3rd world airport and they are IACO not FltPlan.com. Fuel plan and order most of the time. You must be thinking of some of the short no brain trips that come up for everyone.

By the way ever shot an Adcock low range app. or an RLS, looked at wide cut fuel instead of Jet A? Take a look at the arrival and app. to Kathmandu. Take a look at PANS OP and make sure it is not PAS OP2,3,0r 4?

I went to 91/135 after the airline and it is no big deal.

Mobie

 

[G100driver]

PANS 3 or 4???? duh, whats that boss?

 

[mobie]

Pans Op

PANS 3 or 4???? duh, whats that boss?

The different reg. for each state(country) that may have requirements from standard PANS OP, such as APP. BAN in the UK. meaning at 1000 ft. if the airport goes below pub. mins. you must make a missed app. Hollding leg speed and times, inbound or outbound leg times.

You can find them in annex 3 internation operations.

Mobie

 

[AAflyer]

I have to agree with Mobie, less responsibility? Maybe the reason we are looking at all those manuals is if we break one of the regs, policies, or procedures it is OUR fault, and WE will be held accountable.

Yes, you have described some typical tampa to dallas legs of flying, but what about 9 hours to Zurich to fly a VOR approach to mins in horrible weather and winds in the mountains. What about NDB and VOR approaches into Venezuela, Guatemala coupled with the poor english from the controllers? I remember shooting a full VOR (with procedure turn) into Maricabo with thunderstorms in the area. When asking for a 10 left heading for weather he started reading the weather at the field.

I also regularly fly without autopilot, FDs, authothrottles, however after a long 10 hour day flying into ORD with low mins, would it be that safe for me to start hand flying?

I did charter and supplemental work in the 727 and it was very challenging, however airline flying certainly has it's challenges.

It seems very often I hear how I couldn't possibly handle the environment you operate it in, but you could step into my job with ease. Many of us regularly fly GA on the side, ferry aircraft etc. We are very proficient with other areas of our aviation community.

I am sorry for the few that show up thinking they are god's gift to aviation because they flew heavy iron. They do not represent us as a whole. Try to mentor them and teach them to operate in their new environment.

Regards and safe flying,

AA

 

[CapnVegetto]

I'll have to concede some of this to you guys, but you are talking about the pinnacle of aviation experience here......not the day to day operations of the airlines. I'll admit that my airline experience has been limited to the regionals, and that my international experience has been limited to a lot of Carribbean flying and one trip across the pond to Iceland, but on the same token, my regional experience was dealing with some of the most inept pilots I have ever seen. Less than half the guys I flew with had any idea how to make a fuel order without a release. I once asked a 15 year captain at my company to file a flight plan from PHX to TUS over the phone so that we could just go instead of waiting another hour for dispatch to get around to it, and he had no clue how to do it. After I did it, he was completely amazed. Every time anything came up, they were on SELCAL talking to company asking them what they should do. I had 30 minute flightplans filed at FL330 in a CRJ200, and captains that would actually try to f-ing climb up there while I just sat there with my mouth open. Almost everyone was the same, takeoff, autopilot on, turn it off at about 300 feet. Every leg, every time. When I wanted to hand fly an approach, sometimes raw data, because I wanted the practice, I got everything from dirty looks to 'NO DON'T DO THAT!!'s. Every day at my operation was show up, program the FMS, drive the plane, go home.

I'd always imagined things were better at the 'real' airlines, and I'm sure they are. But my limited experiences of flying with heavy iron guys have been nearly the same. Flew with one guy in a Learjet that couldn't even taxi the thing. Another 15,000 hr retired DL pilot I know has trouble finding contract work anymore because "he has no idea how to fly an airplane smoothly." I had an AA 777 FO scare the hell out of me in a 172 when I was a flight instructor. My old boss told me the most scared he's ever been in his life was trying to teach a United 747 CA how to fly a Kingair. My best friend was nearly arrested crossing into the US in a Kingair from the Carribbean because he was flying with a Delta 767 guy that had no idea how to deal with customs, but was trying to act like he did.

I'm sure that flying with some of you guys would change my mind, but my admittedly limited experiences have been mostly bad. Everyone is a product of their experience. I'm just stating mine. Is it right or wrong, who the hell knows? I'd be willing to bet there are just as many jackoffs in GA cockpits just as there are in 121 cockpits. I guess I've been on the wrong end of the 121 spectrum.

 

[mobie]

Biggest Dif.

The thing that has changed from 121 to 91/135 is that I have learned not to put my plate on the floor at home after dinner and not ask my wife where she is based after sex.

Mobie

 

[scarface]

Let me see if I've got this straight. According to what I've read over the months on this website retired airline pilots can't, or shouldn't, fly for the airlines(reference the age 60 rule),corporations, Part 135, et al. Also, those of us who've reached 55+ and can still remember to show up for work ,need a hybrid check airman/First Officer to save us from ourselves. I guess it makes sense.

 

[CapnVegetto]

The thing that has changed from 121 to 91/135 is that I have learned not to put my plate on the floor at home after dinner and not ask my wife where she is based after sex.

Mobie

You mean you can still get it up at your age???

Like Triumph, the insult comic dog: "I keeed, I keeed"

 

[mobie]

Only after I hand fly an app. to mins.
Mobie