737 Pylt
Um....Floats anyone??
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Comair union amenable to taking Delta pilots
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General Lee
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Caveman,
What? I think FDJ2 is right, you have NO CLUE what you are talking about. What overtime? I cannot, only senior Captains in categories that are undermanned---and that is because many line check airman have retired on the large aircraft, so they are having a hard time training people to become line check guys. That is what is happening right now at Delta. That is the truth, we still have the same 75 hour cap for most of our planes, and especially FO lines. We are hurting in the senior Captain area, not FO area. Would you rather we just parked all of the large aircraft? I guess you would. Bill O'Reily would love you---you are in the ALL SPIN ZONE. I speak the truth, and everyone over here believes me, because they know it is true. Comair never helped any of our guys, and the only way they would consider it is if they got something in return. Now, your boy Lawson claims responsibilty for reversing the 11th Commandment, and we all can see right through him. I am not wrong, YOU ARE. As far as the future TA we are voting on, Dalpa has stated that the recalls should continue due to the expansion of flying early next year, and the large retirement numbers. That should keep people coming back.
Bye Bye--General Lee
What? I think FDJ2 is right, you have NO CLUE what you are talking about. What overtime? I cannot, only senior Captains in categories that are undermanned---and that is because many line check airman have retired on the large aircraft, so they are having a hard time training people to become line check guys. That is what is happening right now at Delta. That is the truth, we still have the same 75 hour cap for most of our planes, and especially FO lines. We are hurting in the senior Captain area, not FO area. Would you rather we just parked all of the large aircraft? I guess you would. Bill O'Reily would love you---you are in the ALL SPIN ZONE. I speak the truth, and everyone over here believes me, because they know it is true. Comair never helped any of our guys, and the only way they would consider it is if they got something in return. Now, your boy Lawson claims responsibilty for reversing the 11th Commandment, and we all can see right through him. I am not wrong, YOU ARE. As far as the future TA we are voting on, Dalpa has stated that the recalls should continue due to the expansion of flying early next year, and the large retirement numbers. That should keep people coming back.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Last edited:
Caveman
Grandpa
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My comment about OT is just as inaccurate as GL's inflamatory crap about CMR rejecting DAL furloughees. They are both cheap shots and both are basically not true. That was my intention. Bullseye. I got the response that I get when you guys spread lies about the hiring of furloughees. It's easy to say we aren't hiring furloughees or that you guys are flying OT. Both statements are essentially true, but the real circumstances about what's going on paint a different picture.
"Simple question for an obviously simple man. Caveman, did the CMR MEC support the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots in 2003?"
Simple answer, yes. Period. Further more I challenge you to produce one document, one quote, ANYTHING to the contrary. It doesn't exist and that's what has me pissed off about this. The CMR MEC has done nothing to stop, deter, interfere, prevent or lessen in any way the hiring of DAL furloughees. The only thing that happened is your MEC demanded that we try to change management policy and if we didn't he would paint us as the bad guys. Seems to me he's following through on his threat and you three are his errand boys..
"Now, your boy Lawson claims responsibilty for reversing the 11th Commandment, and we all can see right through him."
He did no such thing. Some news hack embellishes a quote and you start reading between the lines. Where did he 'claim responsibility" for anything?
"As far as the future TA we are voting on, Dalpa has stated that the recalls should continue due to the expansion of flying early next year, and the large retirement numbers. That should keep people coming back."
Good, but I'm not sure what this has to do with this conversation. Especially since I didn't comment one way or the other about your TA. That's was 737's leap to a conclusion about something I never said anything about.
"Simple question for an obviously simple man. Caveman, did the CMR MEC support the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots in 2003?"
Simple answer, yes. Period. Further more I challenge you to produce one document, one quote, ANYTHING to the contrary. It doesn't exist and that's what has me pissed off about this. The CMR MEC has done nothing to stop, deter, interfere, prevent or lessen in any way the hiring of DAL furloughees. The only thing that happened is your MEC demanded that we try to change management policy and if we didn't he would paint us as the bad guys. Seems to me he's following through on his threat and you three are his errand boys..
"Now, your boy Lawson claims responsibilty for reversing the 11th Commandment, and we all can see right through him."
He did no such thing. Some news hack embellishes a quote and you start reading between the lines. Where did he 'claim responsibility" for anything?
"As far as the future TA we are voting on, Dalpa has stated that the recalls should continue due to the expansion of flying early next year, and the large retirement numbers. That should keep people coming back."
Good, but I'm not sure what this has to do with this conversation. Especially since I didn't comment one way or the other about your TA. That's was 737's leap to a conclusion about something I never said anything about.
Caveman,
Let's have a little truth here. You know very well that unless you have a court reporter taking down word for word what is said that you can deny it later. I remember very vividly calling a friend of mine that was going through training at CMR in December of 02. This was right after JC's infamous statement of hiring Delta pilots without giving up their Delta seniority would cause CRM problems and my guys would burn the house down. Notice I didn't put that in quotes because I wasn't there. Now you Comair guys pride yourself of being a little on the radical side. (Thump chest here) We stood up to the oppressive management for 89 days. Good for you. I've been on furlough for over 2 1/2 years and for 15 months I was a charter guy in Atlanta. It's amazing how loose tongues get when pilots think they are just talking to a charter puke or freight dawg. I've heard it all first hand. The hopes of scope going out the window and we'll be flying 737's/90 seaters/unlimited 70 seaters (I guess some dreams come true). I guess what we are trying to say is too little too late with hiring furloughee's now.
B-727 frieght dawg
Let's have a little truth here. You know very well that unless you have a court reporter taking down word for word what is said that you can deny it later. I remember very vividly calling a friend of mine that was going through training at CMR in December of 02. This was right after JC's infamous statement of hiring Delta pilots without giving up their Delta seniority would cause CRM problems and my guys would burn the house down. Notice I didn't put that in quotes because I wasn't there. Now you Comair guys pride yourself of being a little on the radical side. (Thump chest here) We stood up to the oppressive management for 89 days. Good for you. I've been on furlough for over 2 1/2 years and for 15 months I was a charter guy in Atlanta. It's amazing how loose tongues get when pilots think they are just talking to a charter puke or freight dawg. I've heard it all first hand. The hopes of scope going out the window and we'll be flying 737's/90 seaters/unlimited 70 seaters (I guess some dreams come true). I guess what we are trying to say is too little too late with hiring furloughee's now.
B-727 frieght dawg
spinproof
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737 Pylt said:
No its a POS like you that divides Pilot Groups. It's JC Lawson, Cory Tennen and Bill Baker that you should channel your anger not the COMAIR pilots! That goes for the rest of you whinners! Nobodys laughing at anyones misfortune but with retoric like this coming from an ungrateful source, tempers flare!
The same can be said from the other side in reference to combining seniority status.Which I might add would have solved the furlough status for Delta mainliners and this arguement would not be occurring.
The general feeling I get from reading this thread is that no Delta pilot will ever be caught dead in the cockpit of a Comair CRJ. The question I have is....does the TA, should it pass, have specific language in it preventing any potential growth aircraft coming to Comair? If not, it seems to me that furloughed mainline pilots, should they want to continue to fly in the DCI network, may not have a choice.
I cannot speak intelligently about the recent motivation of the CMR MEC to support a policy to hire mainline pilots without resigning their senority number as I am not them. I will say that, from many of the pilots I have flown with and spoke to (at Comair) including myself, with exception most have been OK with the hiring of Delta pilots....from day 1! If I said it was anyone's number 1 priority I would be obviously lying. There is a big difference between being in support of it and trying to make it happen!
In my time at Comair I rarely have come into contact with a mainline pilot without hearing some sort of criticism about being a part of the Comair pilot group. It seems the first priority of a mainline pilot....whether on this board or in your jumpseat...is to establish your place in the pecking order. The rare exception would be when one of you are on MY jumpseat! The attitude I have generally encountered has hardly been a motivating factor to lobby anybody in your favor whether it be my MEC or otherwise. IMO, if I in any way represent our group of pilots, I could say I could care less one way or the other if we hire a mainline pilot. If we do thats fine...if not oh well. We do not all have to have a passionate point of view on this subject as so many do on this board!
I cannot speak intelligently about the recent motivation of the CMR MEC to support a policy to hire mainline pilots without resigning their senority number as I am not them. I will say that, from many of the pilots I have flown with and spoke to (at Comair) including myself, with exception most have been OK with the hiring of Delta pilots....from day 1! If I said it was anyone's number 1 priority I would be obviously lying. There is a big difference between being in support of it and trying to make it happen!
In my time at Comair I rarely have come into contact with a mainline pilot without hearing some sort of criticism about being a part of the Comair pilot group. It seems the first priority of a mainline pilot....whether on this board or in your jumpseat...is to establish your place in the pecking order. The rare exception would be when one of you are on MY jumpseat! The attitude I have generally encountered has hardly been a motivating factor to lobby anybody in your favor whether it be my MEC or otherwise. IMO, if I in any way represent our group of pilots, I could say I could care less one way or the other if we hire a mainline pilot. If we do thats fine...if not oh well. We do not all have to have a passionate point of view on this subject as so many do on this board!
To waivering CMR pilots
Face it Comair guys, the exchage is not going to change the mindset of the Delta pilots writing in this forum or those that don't write in this forum. It does not matter who says what, their minds are made up and they were made up long before Buergey's (their then MEC Chairman's) little visit with the Comair MEC.
There are several reasons for the Delta pilots hatred (like it or not that's what it is) of the Comair pilot group and none of them have anything to do with furloughees.
1) Their MEC tried to prevent Comair from flying jets. The Comair MEC did not roll over and do their bidding. They got angry and have been stomping their feet ever since. They even resorted to calling us "scabs" on the radio when our jets first came on line, and no, it was not one or two of them, it was hundreds of them. They were accustomed to getting their way and having everybody bow before them in ALPA. The Comair MEC didn't bow and they haven't gotten over it. They have disliked us intensly ever since.
2). They tried to promote an Eagle-type flow-through agreement and they were told we were "not interested". They then threatened to stop us from flying the 70-seater alltogether and we told them it would mean war. They tried anyway and failed, winding up with "unlimited" 70-seaters in their scope clause (1996). That pissed them off even more.
3) They used their power within ALPA to take funding away from the Comair MEC in the effort to coerce the CMR MEC into doing what they wanted. They were successful in the Executive Council. The Comair pilots countered by assessing themselves, keeping the assessment money outside of ALPA control and blocking effectively the Delta MEC's effort to coerce the CMR MEC with money. That pissed them off again, even more.
4) The Comair MEC filed a PID request after the purchase of our airline. It was an attempt at unity. The Delta MEC called it a "seniority grab" and launched a progaganda campaign among Delta pilots to promote that idea. The Delta pilots fell for it hook, line and sinker. The Delta MEC fought the PID, with lawyers and every other available means at their disposal. They were successful, but they deeply resented the idea that some "scumbags" from Comair would suggest a merger with almighty Delta. They hated us for making the attempt and they still do.
5) In C2K negotiations they tried again to take away the 70-seaters. They were only partially successful and blocked them at 57. They also restricted the 50-seaters and intentionally created a provision that would force the 70-seaters to be spread over all of DCI, effectively blocking the large orders/options placed by CMR before it was purchased by Delta. They felt good about "squashing" CMR pilots' aspirations (within Comair) and made no secret of it.
6) During the strike they did what they had to do to keep themselves from being called scabs, i.e., they did not fly struck work. They did not do that in support of Comair pilots, they did it for themselves. Some of them walked the picket line with CMR pilots, right up until they got their own C2K settled. As soon as that happened, they never walked again. They did not walk to help CMR, they walked to help their own negotiations. While they were preaching "support" in public, their MEC was quietly fighting every approval of funding from the SOC. They paid the assement because they had to, and some of them gave some dollars to the family fund. Most of them gave nothing, but they have been crowing about it ever since. They are the ONLY pilot group, in or out of ALPA, that has ever demanded a pay-back for their alleged generosity.
7) A group of Comair pilots sued ALPA for failing to represent our interests properly by helping the Delta pilots effort to take our 70-seaters and scope us out of existence. They resented that deeply and used it as a political weapon against all Comair pilots. They are still doing that today.
8) When their pilots were furloughed, their own MEC did NOTHING to help them other than paying their insurance (COBRA). Their MEC refused to use its own negotiating capital with Delta management to obtain preferential hiring for the furloughed pilots anywhere. Instead, they seized an opportunity to approach the CMR MEC with a political manuever structured in a way that they knew would have to be rejected. When it was, they launched a campaign of villification and slander against our MEC and our Chairman. It was no accident, it was a deliberate effort to turn the Delta pilots against Comair pilots and it worked, just like the first propaganda effort and the lies about "seniority grabs". Their MEC Chairman, who made the move, was a long time opponent of Comair jets, before he became MEC Chairman. He was a part of the original effort to take the 70-seaters. A hypocrite and an enemy of the Comair pilots. The furloughed Delta pilots were gullible enough to believe him and with the active propaganda of the Delta MEC joined in the campaign to blame the CMR MEC for the failures of their own MEC.
9) In their most recent concessionary bargaining, while their MEC is publicly pretending to have a "new accomodation" with the CMR and ASA MEC's, they were actively trying at the bargaining table to take the 70-seaters again. They failed. Then they tried to negotiate a J4J program that would put Delta pilots into the Captain seats of Comair airplanes, just like USAir. It had the support of ALPA, but that support was neutered in part due to the RJDC litigation. It failed because the Company would not agree to it. They agreed to modify their scope because the company forced them to do it, period. They were not doing us any favors so don't be duped into believing that.
Since 1994 (long before many of you that want to kiss and make up came to CMR) The Delta MEC, has engaged in a concerted effort to control the flying of Comair pilots; to limit the number of jets we operate; to restrict the size of those jets to 50-seats; and literally to screw us in every way they could think of. Many of you CMR pilots that want a love-in would not be here if they had prevailed. The CMR MEC was mostly, though not completely, successful in stopping them and they resent that.
Now they want to pretend that they are "injured" because the CMR MEC would not go to war with our management for their benefit. We would not do with our management what their own DMEC refused to do with their own Delta management. So now they have the "right" to threaten and attempt to blackball CMR pilots that might want to fly at Delta in the future. They condemn us because we did not do for them what they refused to do for themselves; for their own furloughed pilots.
Wake up and smell the coffee, Comair pilots. They hate our guts and they have hated us from the day Comair ordered its first jet in 1992. Since that time their MEC has consistently worked against the interests of Comair pilots in every way that it could get away with. They despise the CMR MEC because it had the courage to refuse to bow down to their efforts of intimidation and it fought actively for the rights of Comair pilots. The Comair MEC is the ONLY regional MEC in ALPA that has ever had the cojones to stand up to a mainline MEC. The Delta group resents us for doing that and they aren't going to stop unless we give in and allow them to control us and to dictate our futures.
This divide is not about furloughees and it never has been. It's about power. The Delta pilots are the self-appointed Kings of ALPA and anyone who doesn't bow before them is branded an SOB. Especially some regional scumbags like Comair. That is who they are, it is what they believe in the majority, and it is what they represent. It's their "culture" of dominance and they are not about to give it up. They will do or say whatever the can to promote that.
Comair pilots need to understand that. They are not our friends and they never have been. No amount of rhetoric or reasoning is going to change that. Give in and they will squash you like the bug they regard you to be. Thinking that they are going to "love" you because Comair hires a few of their pilots is wishful thinking and It ain't going to happen. They do not want unity, what they want is control and a Trojan Horse is one more tool.
I do not despise any of the Delta line pilots and I feel sorry for those that are furloughed. I want the Company to do well and I want them to do well at Delta. However, not one of them should ever sit in an airplane operated by Comair ahead of any Comair pilot. They have no right to the left seat at Comair and we should not give them that right come hell or high water. I do despise many of their former leaders who have been out to "get" Comair pilots for more than a decade. I'm happy that, so far, they have been less than successful. But, I am not unaware about how much and how hard they have tried.
We should not be listening to BS from the General or any other one of them. Instead, learn and face the truth. We are "separate", they want us to stay separate, and that is how it is going to stay. As long as they do not seek to do us harm, we should get along with them. Meanwhile, lock your doors and guard your house, for they will take from you anything they can whenever they can if you fail to protect it. Leopards don't change their spots. They are not on our side, they never have been and they aren't going to be unless it is in their interest.
The best thing we Comair pilots can do is start worrying about our own survival before we waste time worrying about make-believe unity with people whose agenda is to do us in.
Face it Comair guys, the exchage is not going to change the mindset of the Delta pilots writing in this forum or those that don't write in this forum. It does not matter who says what, their minds are made up and they were made up long before Buergey's (their then MEC Chairman's) little visit with the Comair MEC.
There are several reasons for the Delta pilots hatred (like it or not that's what it is) of the Comair pilot group and none of them have anything to do with furloughees.
1) Their MEC tried to prevent Comair from flying jets. The Comair MEC did not roll over and do their bidding. They got angry and have been stomping their feet ever since. They even resorted to calling us "scabs" on the radio when our jets first came on line, and no, it was not one or two of them, it was hundreds of them. They were accustomed to getting their way and having everybody bow before them in ALPA. The Comair MEC didn't bow and they haven't gotten over it. They have disliked us intensly ever since.
2). They tried to promote an Eagle-type flow-through agreement and they were told we were "not interested". They then threatened to stop us from flying the 70-seater alltogether and we told them it would mean war. They tried anyway and failed, winding up with "unlimited" 70-seaters in their scope clause (1996). That pissed them off even more.
3) They used their power within ALPA to take funding away from the Comair MEC in the effort to coerce the CMR MEC into doing what they wanted. They were successful in the Executive Council. The Comair pilots countered by assessing themselves, keeping the assessment money outside of ALPA control and blocking effectively the Delta MEC's effort to coerce the CMR MEC with money. That pissed them off again, even more.
4) The Comair MEC filed a PID request after the purchase of our airline. It was an attempt at unity. The Delta MEC called it a "seniority grab" and launched a progaganda campaign among Delta pilots to promote that idea. The Delta pilots fell for it hook, line and sinker. The Delta MEC fought the PID, with lawyers and every other available means at their disposal. They were successful, but they deeply resented the idea that some "scumbags" from Comair would suggest a merger with almighty Delta. They hated us for making the attempt and they still do.
5) In C2K negotiations they tried again to take away the 70-seaters. They were only partially successful and blocked them at 57. They also restricted the 50-seaters and intentionally created a provision that would force the 70-seaters to be spread over all of DCI, effectively blocking the large orders/options placed by CMR before it was purchased by Delta. They felt good about "squashing" CMR pilots' aspirations (within Comair) and made no secret of it.
6) During the strike they did what they had to do to keep themselves from being called scabs, i.e., they did not fly struck work. They did not do that in support of Comair pilots, they did it for themselves. Some of them walked the picket line with CMR pilots, right up until they got their own C2K settled. As soon as that happened, they never walked again. They did not walk to help CMR, they walked to help their own negotiations. While they were preaching "support" in public, their MEC was quietly fighting every approval of funding from the SOC. They paid the assement because they had to, and some of them gave some dollars to the family fund. Most of them gave nothing, but they have been crowing about it ever since. They are the ONLY pilot group, in or out of ALPA, that has ever demanded a pay-back for their alleged generosity.
7) A group of Comair pilots sued ALPA for failing to represent our interests properly by helping the Delta pilots effort to take our 70-seaters and scope us out of existence. They resented that deeply and used it as a political weapon against all Comair pilots. They are still doing that today.
8) When their pilots were furloughed, their own MEC did NOTHING to help them other than paying their insurance (COBRA). Their MEC refused to use its own negotiating capital with Delta management to obtain preferential hiring for the furloughed pilots anywhere. Instead, they seized an opportunity to approach the CMR MEC with a political manuever structured in a way that they knew would have to be rejected. When it was, they launched a campaign of villification and slander against our MEC and our Chairman. It was no accident, it was a deliberate effort to turn the Delta pilots against Comair pilots and it worked, just like the first propaganda effort and the lies about "seniority grabs". Their MEC Chairman, who made the move, was a long time opponent of Comair jets, before he became MEC Chairman. He was a part of the original effort to take the 70-seaters. A hypocrite and an enemy of the Comair pilots. The furloughed Delta pilots were gullible enough to believe him and with the active propaganda of the Delta MEC joined in the campaign to blame the CMR MEC for the failures of their own MEC.
9) In their most recent concessionary bargaining, while their MEC is publicly pretending to have a "new accomodation" with the CMR and ASA MEC's, they were actively trying at the bargaining table to take the 70-seaters again. They failed. Then they tried to negotiate a J4J program that would put Delta pilots into the Captain seats of Comair airplanes, just like USAir. It had the support of ALPA, but that support was neutered in part due to the RJDC litigation. It failed because the Company would not agree to it. They agreed to modify their scope because the company forced them to do it, period. They were not doing us any favors so don't be duped into believing that.
Since 1994 (long before many of you that want to kiss and make up came to CMR) The Delta MEC, has engaged in a concerted effort to control the flying of Comair pilots; to limit the number of jets we operate; to restrict the size of those jets to 50-seats; and literally to screw us in every way they could think of. Many of you CMR pilots that want a love-in would not be here if they had prevailed. The CMR MEC was mostly, though not completely, successful in stopping them and they resent that.
Now they want to pretend that they are "injured" because the CMR MEC would not go to war with our management for their benefit. We would not do with our management what their own DMEC refused to do with their own Delta management. So now they have the "right" to threaten and attempt to blackball CMR pilots that might want to fly at Delta in the future. They condemn us because we did not do for them what they refused to do for themselves; for their own furloughed pilots.
Wake up and smell the coffee, Comair pilots. They hate our guts and they have hated us from the day Comair ordered its first jet in 1992. Since that time their MEC has consistently worked against the interests of Comair pilots in every way that it could get away with. They despise the CMR MEC because it had the courage to refuse to bow down to their efforts of intimidation and it fought actively for the rights of Comair pilots. The Comair MEC is the ONLY regional MEC in ALPA that has ever had the cojones to stand up to a mainline MEC. The Delta group resents us for doing that and they aren't going to stop unless we give in and allow them to control us and to dictate our futures.
This divide is not about furloughees and it never has been. It's about power. The Delta pilots are the self-appointed Kings of ALPA and anyone who doesn't bow before them is branded an SOB. Especially some regional scumbags like Comair. That is who they are, it is what they believe in the majority, and it is what they represent. It's their "culture" of dominance and they are not about to give it up. They will do or say whatever the can to promote that.
Comair pilots need to understand that. They are not our friends and they never have been. No amount of rhetoric or reasoning is going to change that. Give in and they will squash you like the bug they regard you to be. Thinking that they are going to "love" you because Comair hires a few of their pilots is wishful thinking and It ain't going to happen. They do not want unity, what they want is control and a Trojan Horse is one more tool.
I do not despise any of the Delta line pilots and I feel sorry for those that are furloughed. I want the Company to do well and I want them to do well at Delta. However, not one of them should ever sit in an airplane operated by Comair ahead of any Comair pilot. They have no right to the left seat at Comair and we should not give them that right come hell or high water. I do despise many of their former leaders who have been out to "get" Comair pilots for more than a decade. I'm happy that, so far, they have been less than successful. But, I am not unaware about how much and how hard they have tried.
We should not be listening to BS from the General or any other one of them. Instead, learn and face the truth. We are "separate", they want us to stay separate, and that is how it is going to stay. As long as they do not seek to do us harm, we should get along with them. Meanwhile, lock your doors and guard your house, for they will take from you anything they can whenever they can if you fail to protect it. Leopards don't change their spots. They are not on our side, they never have been and they aren't going to be unless it is in their interest.
The best thing we Comair pilots can do is start worrying about our own survival before we waste time worrying about make-believe unity with people whose agenda is to do us in.
General Lee
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Wait a second, I guess our MEC wants us to like the ASA pilots and not the Comair pilots, right? Why would they want us to think that? Talk about conspiracy theories. It all comes down to helping out those in need, not about airline politics. When it came down to it, the ASA pilots did not block our guys from coming over and losing seniority rights. I don't care if 6 people total did it, it was a nice gesture. The Comair pilots in general did NOT advocate out loud the helping of the unfortunate furloughs. Now your guy Lawson states (in the paper) that last Summer he and the Comair MEC floated an idea over to Comair management to change the 11th Commandment. Well, wasn't that 2 1/2 years too late? If your guys were so altruistic, wouldn't they have done that sooner? You guys are awesome.
As far as your scope examples, I think it would be natural for any group to want to protect it's flying. You guys sure did not, and look where it got you. Look around at all of the other DCI carriers out there, thanks to you and your LACK of scope. I bet you wish you had used some of your might at the bargaining table to add some scope protections? Oh wait, you really didn't have much "might", did you? Well, neither do we right now.
Bye Bye--General Lee
As far as your scope examples, I think it would be natural for any group to want to protect it's flying. You guys sure did not, and look where it got you. Look around at all of the other DCI carriers out there, thanks to you and your LACK of scope. I bet you wish you had used some of your might at the bargaining table to add some scope protections? Oh wait, you really didn't have much "might", did you? Well, neither do we right now.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Last edited:
amcnd
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General Lee
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What happened to those flow ups at AA? They got to flow back to AA Eagle as Captains, right? Sounds like a good deal for any DCI member that moves up---a flow back to where you were before. Also, AA bought TWA and then dismantled it, and that hasn't happened over here.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Bye Bye--General Lee
Surplus1,
What complete garbage! Look you can't have it both ways. I thought the reason you guys had the RJ's was because it was beneath a mainline pilot to fly. That is what everyone has been saying on this forum. What you want to change the tune now? You state that in this concessionary TA that we were actually trying to take your 70 seaters away! Give me a break. You are not on the negotating committee or even a Delta pilot so how did you come up with this little gem? I am always amazed that the Mainline airline that has without argument the most liberal scope clause in the industry is always being hammered as oppressive. We have more RJ's deployed than any two mainline airlines combined and here are some upcoming facts for this new TA:
1. 150 70 seat RJ's then 1 additional 70 seater for every 10,000 mainline hours.
2. 25% of connection flying has to be flown by ASA and CMR (yeah that's right we provided you the scope that you never negotiated)
3. Preferential interviews for regional airlines that take a 70 seat jet above the previous 57 limit once Delta starts interviewing again. (you can laugh now but it will happen. It's the nature of the industry. It's a cycle)
Additionally 49% of all flying can be done by RJ's. So how is it that we are always portrayed as the evil mainline pilot looking to take the Regional pilots job.
B-727 Freight Dawg
Will eventually be back at Delta and will try my best to keep Comair pilots off property
What complete garbage! Look you can't have it both ways. I thought the reason you guys had the RJ's was because it was beneath a mainline pilot to fly. That is what everyone has been saying on this forum. What you want to change the tune now? You state that in this concessionary TA that we were actually trying to take your 70 seaters away! Give me a break. You are not on the negotating committee or even a Delta pilot so how did you come up with this little gem? I am always amazed that the Mainline airline that has without argument the most liberal scope clause in the industry is always being hammered as oppressive. We have more RJ's deployed than any two mainline airlines combined and here are some upcoming facts for this new TA:
1. 150 70 seat RJ's then 1 additional 70 seater for every 10,000 mainline hours.
2. 25% of connection flying has to be flown by ASA and CMR (yeah that's right we provided you the scope that you never negotiated)
3. Preferential interviews for regional airlines that take a 70 seat jet above the previous 57 limit once Delta starts interviewing again. (you can laugh now but it will happen. It's the nature of the industry. It's a cycle)
Additionally 49% of all flying can be done by RJ's. So how is it that we are always portrayed as the evil mainline pilot looking to take the Regional pilots job.
B-727 Freight Dawg
Will eventually be back at Delta and will try my best to keep Comair pilots off property
No, I think a furloughed mainliner would, in fact, take a CMR FO position on the low end of the totem pole only because it is better than sitting on your a$$ at home.... My DAL friends tell me that the Comair guys shouldn't expect the reciprocity though because the damage has already been done (as you can sense by these replies). I can't even write down some of the vitriolic statements I have heard about the Comair group from some of my DAL buddies. Yeah, Lawson has done some serious damage.Ameriagle said:
I would bet that if a Delta furloughee who has not flown in years were offered either an ASA seat or a Comair seat today (and nothing else was available), the ASA seat would probably be taken unless location was a big issue.
StaySeated
IBT does not represent ME
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Wholly P1ssing Match!
Jesus, you guys need to get laid! I have commuted amongst comair and DAL guys for a while and I have never witnessed anything close to the type of insane animosity demonstrated on this board. I have personnally witnessed DAL guys give up the jumpseat so a comair guy could sit upfront because his seniority number would not hold a seat in back. I have also seen comair crews go out of their way to get a DAL jumpseater on board when the braintrust gate said there was a weight problem. If some of you believe that one pilot group might have an effect on the hiring of another feel free. There must be something in the water down in cincinasty.
Group hug?
Jesus, you guys need to get laid! I have commuted amongst comair and DAL guys for a while and I have never witnessed anything close to the type of insane animosity demonstrated on this board. I have personnally witnessed DAL guys give up the jumpseat so a comair guy could sit upfront because his seniority number would not hold a seat in back. I have also seen comair crews go out of their way to get a DAL jumpseater on board when the braintrust gate said there was a weight problem. If some of you believe that one pilot group might have an effect on the hiring of another feel free. There must be something in the water down in cincinasty.
Group hug?
DougCorp-9
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Tim47SIP
Serving for the USofA
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Numbers?
here you go again, jumping on the feel good bandwagon. i realize it makes you feel good to blame the Comair pilots for your furloughs. it also makes you feel good to glorify the ASA pilots, who sat on the sidelines and did nothing (yeah that's right) to help hire your furloughs. eventualy, because of management, they hired 12 in a 2 year period (6 stayed). but either way, it was management.
Your numbers are wrong. There have been way more than that hired after we started hiring the second time. There are still more in the pile. The three Delta guys I got hired are all still there. I am being told by the GO an average of two per class. Not a great amount, but significantly more than your numbers. Additionally, at the time, I was personally approached by our LEC in DFW as to what I thought about it (D.U.) as the MEC was trying to get feedback at the time. He stated that my response was the concensous. Take it for what it's worth.
here you go again, jumping on the feel good bandwagon. i realize it makes you feel good to blame the Comair pilots for your furloughs. it also makes you feel good to glorify the ASA pilots, who sat on the sidelines and did nothing (yeah that's right) to help hire your furloughs. eventualy, because of management, they hired 12 in a 2 year period (6 stayed). but either way, it was management.
Your numbers are wrong. There have been way more than that hired after we started hiring the second time. There are still more in the pile. The three Delta guys I got hired are all still there. I am being told by the GO an average of two per class. Not a great amount, but significantly more than your numbers. Additionally, at the time, I was personally approached by our LEC in DFW as to what I thought about it (D.U.) as the MEC was trying to get feedback at the time. He stated that my response was the concensous. Take it for what it's worth.
Look, the situation would be different had ASA not taken on Delta furloughees... But ASA did and furloughees had an option other than the street. We're not talking about taking existing Captain slots or displacing existing FOs - we're talking about going directly to the bottom of the FO list - how would that hurt anyone?????
What's up with this "blame Comair for the furloughees" bullspit? Blame Bin Laden for the furloughees, but blame Lawson for seeking to exploit people in need. That's the point. This "change of heart" is so transparent and self-serving... There was no altruistic "support for your fellow pilots" attitude. And for that reason, the DAL mainliners are justifiably upset.
What's up with this "blame Comair for the furloughees" bullspit? Blame Bin Laden for the furloughees, but blame Lawson for seeking to exploit people in need. That's the point. This "change of heart" is so transparent and self-serving... There was no altruistic "support for your fellow pilots" attitude. And for that reason, the DAL mainliners are justifiably upset.
That's real mature Mike. You are a pitiful excuse for a "professional" and quite frankly, with that attitude and the reflected immaturity, we don't want you. As for the others who want to join a dedicated and proud group, I welcome you with open arms.
What's funny is that we would be your biggest ally. Have we caved in to management? No, we haven't. We struck and we said "no to concessions". I think that speaks volumes more than Skywest and many of the others accepting much lower pay. Of course ASA is to be commended for not "caving in", thanks guys.
As for the the issue you speak of, it is my understanding your MEC chairman (sorry, forgot his name) basically told JC what he was going to do. Would you say yes to anything that management told you to do, I seriously doubt it. It's all about attitude and I'm sure if your rep was open to other ideas or at least the discussion of, then there would have been a different outcome. FWIW, I expressed my desire to see Delta pilots here long before that encounter and as I mentioned above, I still do. You though, we certainly don't need.
-Sky
What's funny is that we would be your biggest ally. Have we caved in to management? No, we haven't. We struck and we said "no to concessions". I think that speaks volumes more than Skywest and many of the others accepting much lower pay. Of course ASA is to be commended for not "caving in", thanks guys.
As for the the issue you speak of, it is my understanding your MEC chairman (sorry, forgot his name) basically told JC what he was going to do. Would you say yes to anything that management told you to do, I seriously doubt it. It's all about attitude and I'm sure if your rep was open to other ideas or at least the discussion of, then there would have been a different outcome. FWIW, I expressed my desire to see Delta pilots here long before that encounter and as I mentioned above, I still do. You though, we certainly don't need.
-Sky
michael707767 said:
737 Pylt
Um....Floats anyone??
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Hey spinproof. I see you came out from under the rock you're sharing with your rjdc pals.spinproof said:
Not having voiced thier opinion against support of our furloughees is just as bad! I did not see one voice of support!
Whiners, I think not. Pi$$ed, I think so!
Stop back when you have less time!
737
spinproof
Well-known member
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Rock? Sounds like you'd like to get personal! I'd love to accomdate you. Feel free to email me with your avalible times and dates. I'm sure we can arrange a meeting for you to vent your anger.737 Pylt said:
RJDC pals ,yes I have many what that has to do with this isn't clear. What is clear is the support you now demand wouldn't be nessessary if a simple staple was agreed to a few years back.
What is also clear is that you are a whinner and a pu$$y. Apparently that goes with having a 737 type rating.
FmrFreightDog
Py-lote
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Hey, I have a good idea. Let's take all the Comair guys' battle stars away and replace them with something a little more obvious. I mean, it seems like we all need a little more reminding about the stand they took and how we should all recognize them for it, ad nauseum...
I'm thinking perhaps a large wooden cross. You guys would look fantastic hauling them around the terminal, and then we wouldn't ever forget your *ahem* sacrifice. As a plus, we could all be reminded about how the big, bad Delta pilots continue to trample on your rights and refuse to give you the respect you are due. Maybe we could even remember to bow when you pass by.........
Jeez.
I'm thinking perhaps a large wooden cross. You guys would look fantastic hauling them around the terminal, and then we wouldn't ever forget your *ahem* sacrifice. As a plus, we could all be reminded about how the big, bad Delta pilots continue to trample on your rights and refuse to give you the respect you are due. Maybe we could even remember to bow when you pass by.........
Jeez.
N813CA
Yeah buddy
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The Delta pilots I have read so far, real professional. If you act like this, I don't want to work for Delta. You make the most in the industry as well, and you give Comair a hard time because they make $2 more an hour then Air Wisconsin. From what I have read I have seen more mature comments from 8th graders. Is this why MAINLINE MAKES THE BIG BUCKS? Get a life. I am so sorry you have to make the decision to sell your summer home or have your wife go to work. Considering the HIGHEST PAID REGIONAL AIRLINE MAKES $24,000 HIS FIRST YEAR.
General Lee
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N813CA,
I made a lot less than that in the early 90's. The reason we are mad is the "response" by your MEC leadership and the lack of response by your membership after our guys started getting furloughed. The key here is that you can't back any of your statements up, primarily because ASA helped and you did not, and you guys are sister airlines. It made no sense. And then, your leader Lawson just stated in the paper that the Comair MEC floated the idea last Summer to managment to help our furloughs out, after all of you guys on here said there was NO WAY TO BREAK THE 11th Commandment---"Thou shalt not hire a Delta pilot furlough without seniority resignation." What a joke. That is what we as a whole are mad about. The ASA pilots helped out when our guys NEEDED IT, and they will be rewarded. And, I treat all pilots well when on our jumpseat, and I am especially friendly to ASA and Chautaqua pilots now. I don't give Comair pilots cold stares, that is ridiculous. I just don't go out of my way to say hi.
Bye Bye--General Lee
I made a lot less than that in the early 90's. The reason we are mad is the "response" by your MEC leadership and the lack of response by your membership after our guys started getting furloughed. The key here is that you can't back any of your statements up, primarily because ASA helped and you did not, and you guys are sister airlines. It made no sense. And then, your leader Lawson just stated in the paper that the Comair MEC floated the idea last Summer to managment to help our furloughs out, after all of you guys on here said there was NO WAY TO BREAK THE 11th Commandment---"Thou shalt not hire a Delta pilot furlough without seniority resignation." What a joke. That is what we as a whole are mad about. The ASA pilots helped out when our guys NEEDED IT, and they will be rewarded. And, I treat all pilots well when on our jumpseat, and I am especially friendly to ASA and Chautaqua pilots now. I don't give Comair pilots cold stares, that is ridiculous. I just don't go out of my way to say hi.
Bye Bye--General Lee
737 Pylt
Um....Floats anyone??
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N813CA
Yeah buddy
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General Lee
You at least don't ## in my face and I will respect that and that is why I will respond. First of all, I also made less in the early 90's we all did. Times were good when Comair and Delta made their last contract. I strongly believe if Comair wasn't making between 20-45 million a quarter we would take a pay cut. Yeah I know, you will now say that our profit doesn't count because we don't have our own scheduling system, ect.... Comair made money before Delta bought them as well as now, I don't care if Comair makes even $20 million there is still a profit. I saw in the CVG paper 4 months ago, I know we can't believe what we see in the papers but they said that Comair has the lowest cost per seat mile in the DCI. Yet we are the most paid by 3 dollars compared to AW. Even ASA which is going through negotiations is only $4-5 less then us. Sorry to get off the main topic. I can't change your mind and I don't want to change your mind. The odds of Delta hiring in the next 10 years is pretty hopeless. I don't personally know JC, and that is why I don't think you should bash the whole pilot group. Just to give you an idea. Our pilot group did approve bringing you guys on last summer and keep your sonority. You know what our management said, so what we are still not going to do it. So we have tried, and I strongly feel that we have tried before, but if our management feels it is best not to, what are we suppose to do? There is a reason why Comair makes $20-45 million a quarter. There is also a reason why Delta bought us for so much money. In fact, I believe Delta paid more money to buy us than any other airline paid to buy an airline. What does that tell you.
You at least don't ## in my face and I will respect that and that is why I will respond. First of all, I also made less in the early 90's we all did. Times were good when Comair and Delta made their last contract. I strongly believe if Comair wasn't making between 20-45 million a quarter we would take a pay cut. Yeah I know, you will now say that our profit doesn't count because we don't have our own scheduling system, ect.... Comair made money before Delta bought them as well as now, I don't care if Comair makes even $20 million there is still a profit. I saw in the CVG paper 4 months ago, I know we can't believe what we see in the papers but they said that Comair has the lowest cost per seat mile in the DCI. Yet we are the most paid by 3 dollars compared to AW. Even ASA which is going through negotiations is only $4-5 less then us. Sorry to get off the main topic. I can't change your mind and I don't want to change your mind. The odds of Delta hiring in the next 10 years is pretty hopeless. I don't personally know JC, and that is why I don't think you should bash the whole pilot group. Just to give you an idea. Our pilot group did approve bringing you guys on last summer and keep your sonority. You know what our management said, so what we are still not going to do it. So we have tried, and I strongly feel that we have tried before, but if our management feels it is best not to, what are we suppose to do? There is a reason why Comair makes $20-45 million a quarter. There is also a reason why Delta bought us for so much money. In fact, I believe Delta paid more money to buy us than any other airline paid to buy an airline. What does that tell you.
General Lee
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N813CA,
Ok, here we go again with the "we make money and you don't....." We could go around in circles on this, but obviously you guys would be better off on your own---you know, like successful Independence Air. Right........ I would hope that you make money---most of your routes used to fill 727s. And, that successful RJ hub---DFW---has really done well for us. Those CR7s on long transcons (DFW-OAK, DFW-JFK, DFW-FLL, DFW--DCA) have all done great. I know that was ASA's hub, but if you were in there you would have cost more and it still would have gone south.
Look, there is no doubt that the RJ can do well for us, but that is when it is put on the correct route. Just rember something, profits are opinions. There are always ways to move money around and make certain parts more profitable than others. You can depreciate aircraft and create losses. There are plenty of Wharton style tactics that can $crew with people. But, we all know that a full 777 to Europe or NRT really brings in the dough. And Grinstein said that we need large profits to pay down the debt. With our costs in line at mainline, expect more mainline participation and less 50 seat use. Sure, you did create some profits, and that is great. But, management is looking at your overall costs, and comparing it to Mesa and others. What will you say when asked if you want more growth in exchange for pay cuts? Will you stand up and say "Hey, you bought us for $1.5 billion, we are worth more!" I doubt that. Even Lawson said he knows they will be asking for more. How much are you worth? We didn't have a choice, do you?
Bye Bye--General Lee
Ok, here we go again with the "we make money and you don't....." We could go around in circles on this, but obviously you guys would be better off on your own---you know, like successful Independence Air. Right........ I would hope that you make money---most of your routes used to fill 727s. And, that successful RJ hub---DFW---has really done well for us. Those CR7s on long transcons (DFW-OAK, DFW-JFK, DFW-FLL, DFW--DCA) have all done great. I know that was ASA's hub, but if you were in there you would have cost more and it still would have gone south.
Look, there is no doubt that the RJ can do well for us, but that is when it is put on the correct route. Just rember something, profits are opinions. There are always ways to move money around and make certain parts more profitable than others. You can depreciate aircraft and create losses. There are plenty of Wharton style tactics that can $crew with people. But, we all know that a full 777 to Europe or NRT really brings in the dough. And Grinstein said that we need large profits to pay down the debt. With our costs in line at mainline, expect more mainline participation and less 50 seat use. Sure, you did create some profits, and that is great. But, management is looking at your overall costs, and comparing it to Mesa and others. What will you say when asked if you want more growth in exchange for pay cuts? Will you stand up and say "Hey, you bought us for $1.5 billion, we are worth more!" I doubt that. Even Lawson said he knows they will be asking for more. How much are you worth? We didn't have a choice, do you?
Bye Bye--General Lee
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spinproof
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My Mother died in 2001. I think you are mistaken on meeting her.737 Pylt said:
Apparently you feel compelled to talk when you should listen. You are like a little boy that hides behind his mothers skirt shouting how tough you are. Demeaning people for something they had nothing to do. You are a weasel and a coward. The worst kind of coward one that thrives on blamming the guiltless for their missery.
God knows who you are pray I don't find out.
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737 Pylt
Um....Floats anyone??
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