HA - Latest System Bid

[igneousy2]

Just curious what the latest CA DOH were on each equipment type on the latest system bid that just came out. Is there a new junior Captain?

Thanks

 

[nethan]

330 - May 2001
767 - May 2008 (I think the bottom guy(s) got displaced on this one maybe?)
717 - Sep 2009

 

[HAL]

Yes, several of the bottom captains on the 717 are first-time captains for HA. On the newest award the bottom 717CA was hired in 9/09, 767CA in 5/08, and 330CA in 7/01. There's only 27 people between the bottom 767CA and bottom 330CA because there wasn't any hiring between '01 and '08.

There are 17 new-hire positions on this bid, all of them 717 FOs. App window opens 9/12.

HAL

 

[Shifty]

1st class Sept. 25!

 

[FLYN4LVE]

you don't want to know. he/she was probably your FO in your previous life.

 

[jonjuan]

330 - May 2001
767 - May 2008 (I think the bottom guy(s) got displaced on this one maybe?)
717 - Sep 2009

The generals going to love slinging gear for a 2009 HA hire after the merger.

 

[BentOver]

That merger rumor has been dead for over a year... Keep up... We are on merger rumor #5 by now....

Delta
AA
Alaskan
JB
And now VA ( apparently we had some sort of lei day party with them)

 

[Microclimates]

I heard Garuda

 

[FlyinGuy]

That merger rumor has been dead for over a year... Keep up... We are on merger rumor #5 by now....

Delta
AA
Alaskan
JB
And now VA ( apparently we had some sort of lei day party with them)

Oh common dude!!!! Why you wanna leave out the LUV machine on your list?

 

[Jim]

Oh common dude!!!! Why you wanna leave out the LUV machine on your list?

Because other than coming from some SWA trolls here, it's never been a rumor at Hawaiian. Nothing but Flightinfo make believe.

 

[xjhawk]

So i am assuming the 717 is an impossible mainland commute? I am almost laughing at myself just thinking about it. I would love to move back to Hawaii, but my kids are in the midwest and they are my main priority.

 

[HAL]

So i am assuming the 717 is an impossible mainland commute?

It's not impossible, but it isn't pretty. And if you're trying to go all the way to the midwest, it would be worse. We do have a few commuters. It just takes patience, a realistic point of view, and a high tolerance for jumpseats. The good news is that after two years you'd get your choice of aircraft since the 321NEOs will be showing up about then. Our planning people still say that almost everyone currently on the property will have a shot at the left seat by 2020, so these new-hires will be senior FOs by then.

HAL

 

[Junkflyer]

Some people do make pretty long commutes even interisland pilots. Realistically, with all the big boys hiring, you are better off at DAL, AAL, or UAL at least for a shorter commute in the future if nothing else. HAL is a good place to work, but commuting will never get easier.

 

[BentOver]

Because other than coming from some SWA trolls here, it's never been a rumor at Hawaiian. Nothing but Flightinfo make believe.

What Jim said

Atleast the other companies make some sense.... SWA going to China......:laugh:

 

[BentOver]

Our planning people still say that almost everyone currently on the property will have a shot at the left seat by 2020, so these new-hires will be senior FOs by then.

HAL

I've been running all sorts of scenarios/ numbers in my head....

I'm under the belief that there will always be that handful of FO's who won't give up their 3-4 day Australia's/Japan/Korea as a senior FO, to go do NEO West Coast for what may end up being a few thousand more $$ per year....

After seeing how many bypassed a chance at 717 Captain I think just about anyone hired in 2012 should atleast have an outside chance at junior NEO/717 Captain by the time the NEO's are nearly all delivered.....

Or worse case , be a senior widebody FO with a nice schedule....

Life could be worse!!!

 

[Microclimates]

I am a long distance commuter at HAL. I lucked out because as a new hire I was assigned a wide body airplane, and there was a bunch of hiring right after me, so I became 'senior' reserve pretty quickly. I can still remember the insane amount of stress I felt on that first day, waiting to find out what aircraft I was going to be on... I don't know if I could have stayed had I been assigned to the 717.

One very good thing at HAL is that reserve rostering is also accomplished via PBS, so it is in theory possible to stack all your days off... However, a) this happens by seniority (obviously) and b) we are entering contract negotiations: relevant because it is no secret that crew scheduling doesn't like reserve lines with 12 consecutive days off, since effectively it means that even when you are 'on', you still need 30hrs in 7 per part 117. will this be a bargaining chip in the negotiations? Hope not, but wouldn't be surprised if it was. HAL has many more commuters than it used to but make no mistake, it does not like, nor does it cater to, commuters, in any way (starting from new hire training-- or interviewing, for that matter... 72 hr notice for an interview anyone?)
So you might get sympathy from the union (definitely not corporate) but I don't feel that commuter QOL is anywhere near the top of the list.

I am blessed with having been offered this gig, and with how it turned out. I have an unusual commute because I go west, not to the mainland. If I were a mainland commuter (sorry HAL friends) I don't think I would have seen HAL as a good fit: as someone said earlier all the big boys are hiring. if you look at retirements, HAl has a MUCH younger pilot group than most mainland legacies. There are a LOT of 20 something year olds on property already, there are A LOT of 30 something widebody captains (relative to industry averages)... so, you MAY end up upgrading for a few years on the NEO, but you will forever be a junior captain, unless you are 18 when you join and can see all these kids through to their retirement party-- I know I can't.

Finally, not to be a debbie downer but there is a lot of koolaid sloshing around relative to the neo's. first of all, they won't be, entirely at least, growth aircraft-- they will replace some 717s on the interisland schedule, as they do HNL to outer island to US trips and back. Secondly, Ohana is a real player going forward, since even though language provides a 'floor' to jet inter-island flying, the company can go to the 'floor' and give all leftover flying to ohana. not to mention any GROWTH of inter-island markets is pretty much guaranteed to go to ohana (as is already happening: OGG-KOA, OGG-ITO).
Lastly, the 350 is no more: the new widebody will be the 330NEO, which will arrive in 2019, not 2017 as the 350 was supposed to...

So, as a commuter, I would say to any mainland commuter: think about it.

 

[xjhawk]

Thanks, Thats all good advice to think about. But the situation I am in and many of my co-workers are in is that of a loss of 1/2 of our seniority because of mergers, a huge loss in pay and QOL because of a bankruptcy and now the possible parking of the remaining 50 seat planes we have giving a future of more down grades and being a junior FO in New York. Is that better or worse than commuting to Paradise?

The smaller Majors like HA and Alaska have always been very high on my list, above the big three because of the work place environment and knowing your co-workers. This is a huge decision but I would feel very luck to be forced to move to Hawaii for a short while as I waited for a commutable schedule.

 

[mokulele50]

Thanks, Thats all good advice to think about. But the situation I am in and many of my co-workers are in is that of a loss of 1/2 of our seniority because of mergers, a huge loss in pay and QOL because of a bankruptcy and now the possible parking of the remaining 50 seat planes we have giving a future of more down grades and being a junior FO in New York. Is that better or worse than commuting to Paradise?

The smaller Majors like HA and Alaska have always been very high on my list, above the big three because of the work place environment and knowing your co-workers. This is a huge decision but I would feel very luck to be forced to move to Hawaii for a short while as I waited for a commutable schedule.

I'm expecting this round of hiring to really look hard into personal connections to Hawaii and the airline. In the last year we've had two pilots (both originally from 9E) leave to go to UAL and UPS. Both were commuting to the A330 in HNL from the midwest.

 

[Microclimates]

well, the good news is, there is no decision until there is a job offer! so apply away!

 

[Jim]

Microclimates - according to the figures given to the pilots when the 321s were announced, the pilot group is going to double in sise between 2013 and 2020 with a large increase in total aircraft. The charts for aircraft acquisition and retirement I've seen at the fleet managers's desk as late as last week still show this. Everyone who is on the pilot list now will easily be able to hold a Captain seat by 2020.

When I was a junior DC-10 FE and junior 717 FO, I had no problem commuting between HNL and LAS. I still commute frequently to LAS and now ROC (where my daughter is in college) with no problems. The ROC is multiple legs on other airlines where my HA seniority is meaningless. My bid is as one of the junior 767 Captains so pretty much garbage. Yet commuting has still been doable, just with more frequent, shorter stays versus less frequent longer stays.

 

[xjhawk]

Thanks Jim, Thats what I wanted to hear! Like I said, I lived in Hawaii years ago and loved it and wanted to move them there if I got the job-but bringing my kids and the ex-wife could be troublesome Kids would love growing up there, its a wonderful place to live. Also, Working for a great company with recognizable (personal relationships) great people has always been very high on my list. I cannot say what others will do, but the first major to hire me is where I will spend the rest of my career.

If new hires leaving is an issue, maybe they could look to the former XJ (9e) pilots who are in their mid 40's and not their late 20's or early 30's on who they hire as those my age don't want to be jumping around-our time left before retirement does not make that a good option (that was for Mokulele50's response to those who have left from 9e).

 

[Flywithmike]

HAl has a MUCH younger pilot group than most mainland legacies. There are a LOT of 20 something year olds on property already,

This didn't sound right to me, so I checked the retirement list and we have exactly 6 (out of more than 600 pilots) that are 29 or younger. In other words, more than 99% of the pilot group is older than 29. Most of our younger pilots are at least in their 30's.

I'm a junior FO west coast commuter on the A330 and I haven't had any trouble with the commuting. It's actually really easy most of the time. If you commute on the Airbus, you can go sleep in the lower crew rest bunk which is a huge bonus.

Flying trips into your home city is nice as well.

 

[HAL]

I'm expecting this round of hiring to really look hard into personal connections to Hawaii and the airline. In the last year we've had two pilots (both originally from 9E) leave to go to UAL and UPS. Both were commuting to the A330 in HNL from the midwest.

Out of the 200+ pilots hired since 2008 we've had two leave to go elsewhere. I think that's better than any legacy carrier during the same period. Yes, the company looks for connections to Hawaii as they've always done. But I'm sure they are primarily looking for great pilots and great people. I have no complaints about the hiring they've done so far. Everyone has been great, including the two that left (I flew with both). I think we're going to get another group of great people this time around too.

HAL

 

[Microclimates]

Hey Fly

I am happy for you that the commuting is working out for you. the bunk is awesome for commuters, if only it were available on augmented crew trips
I hope the neo schedule, when it comes, will be as conducive to low-stress commuting as the wb are...

As far as my numbers go, while I may have exaggerated slightly on just how young the group is, how many of the captains you fly with are younger than 55? I would speculate quite a few.

The only retirement list I have (gotta get a new one!) is way out of date, from jan 2011. On that list, there are 6 people retiring after 2048 (making them 20-somethings now). However, the list is from 1/2011. at the time, there were barely 400 pilots on property. Since then we have hired 230 odd people, quite a few of them, I believe, are quite young (though I have no data beyond observation)

Regardless of all that, even if I am completely wrong about the 20 somethings, and maybe even the 30 somethings, most of this group is young, compared to many mainland legacies. a lot are already wb captains. Hey good for them, they fought tooth and nail for everything they have.

All that said, it is a great company with a fantastic lifestyle potential. I am happy here and rock the pualani on my tie. Just trying to be realistic about the long hike up the seniority list...

 

[Flywithmike]

Yeah, I hope the neo schedule works out well
for committing also. You're right, most captains i fly with are under 55, but I'd guess very few are in their 30's. I was using the latest retirement list dated 9/13 which I think accounts for everyone on property. I'm too lazy to actually figure it out, but If I had to guess, I would estimate the median age of the entire group at Hawaiian to be around 43.

 

[...Lost]

Using the 9/13 list I count 2 widebody captains under the age of 40. I didn't check the 717 from the last vacancy award but looks like roughly 10 captains under 40 over there. I did count that there are 276 pilots over the age of 50...

 

[FLYN4LVE]

In other news, I hear that "never been a captain" Longhorn is still an instructor despite all the uproar.

 

[mokulele50]

Out of the 200+ pilots hired since 2008 we've had two leave to go elsewhere. I think that's better than any legacy carrier during the same period. Yes, the company looks for connections to Hawaii as they've always done. But I'm sure they are primarily looking for great pilots and great people. I have no complaints about the hiring they've done so far. Everyone has been great, including the two that left (I flew with both). I think we're going to get another group of great people this time around too.

HAL

The two that I mentioned left in the last year alone. There was also a guy hired a year and half ago that quit during indoc because he was awarded the 717 (he was planning to commute from PDX). Another guy quit during training (he was also struggling) when he realized his commute to the 717 from LAX wasn't going to work with his family life.

Two years ago a new hire left after getting his 767 type rating.

Then there is the notorious 717 FO currently on property who goes around telling everyone he/she has their application in at Delta.

A commute from the mainland to our 717 operation is extremely difficult (NOTE: ALL NEW HIRES THIS ROUND WILL BE ASSIGNED TO THE 717 AND SEATLOCKED FOR TWO YEARS). It is clear to me that many guys came to HAL for the quick widebody experience. Those days are done for now. If you want to live a happy life with HAL for the next two years, plan on moving here.

 

[Dan Roman]

Using the 9/13 list I count 2 widebody captains under the age of 40. I didn't check the 717 from the last vacancy award but looks like roughly 10 captains under 40 over there. I did count that there are 276 pilots over the age of 50...

I would say this the most accurate perspective. Micro, keep in mind we also hired a lot of older F/O's. When HA started hiring they hired all different ages in most of the classes. As far as 18 - 24 NEO's not being growth, I would have to disagree. They will replace some 767 flying I'm sure, but add many more routes. Inter-island will still be busy despite more outer island direct flights. My take is Ohana will only grow in markets that a 717 never would have flown anyway. If anything they will help feed mainline. I KNOW I KNOW, this is the thinking that let the cat out of the bag on the mainline and created the RJ debacle. I don't see that happening here at all. Inter-island will always be heavily traveled and require large A/C on the routes we use the 717 and Inter-island is too core to our pilot group to ever consider giving that up.
As far as commuting goes, seems to me there are numerous options that are easy from the west coast, you can even pair up with another pilot and split a pairing that would allow you to originate your flight on the west coast. I don't think your concerns about losing the 12 in a row are valid. We have always protected that. If it's any consolation the head of the negotiating committee and some members are commuters. I'm guessing the "new" MEC will be open and responsive to pilot input. They will be coming in as fresh blood.
But essentially, we have some quick upgrades and some of them are, in fact young. But we also have a lot of pilots that started here in their 40's or 50's. The a/c we have on order means a lot of hiring, the fact that our classes are filled with with pilots of all different ages means there shouldn't be the stagnation that hiring a whole class of fairly young pilots causes down the road when the inevitable slow downs come.

 

[Jim]

Of course the company is going to try and hold contract negotiations/improvements hostage to the A321Neos like they tried when we got the A330s. I can hear Dunkerley now...."We can't grow if we give you what you want. Choose growth or contract improvements, you can't have both." With the bottom half of the list being new blood and with the new MEC I think we as a pilot group will call Bull ********************, but I know the words are coming.