Why hire military over your competition?

[waveflyer]

Good posts yip

 

[densoo]

You seemed to have missed the point. You must to be a "one issue" individual.

Boxboy and others, I apologize for jumping on that one phrase and thus missing your larger point. It was unnecessarily self-righteous. Too easy to do on these boards.

 

[Boxboy]

Boxboy and others, I apologize for jumping on that one phrase and thus missing your larger point. It was unnecessarily self-righteous. Too easy to do on these boards.

No problem. I tend to get a little sarcastic with my postings sometimes. My tour in the American Toy Company (ATC) has some to do with it, I guess.

Happy Memorial Day, ya'll and thank you to all those who have sacrificed so much!

 

[SIG600]

Wave, you speak out of both sides of your mouth. You say in some posts that regional pilots are just as good and just as deserving, yet in this thread demand that mil guys go to a regional to gain experience.

If the operations are the same, then what is the difference? Are regional pilots "lesser" thus not as deserving? Are their operations more dangerous and complicated? If so why shouldn't they be making more money and you get $24/hour for how easy your job is. What experience is there to be gained by practicing bleeding for the almighty job at the majors? If a mil guy is so dangerous why should they be doing 5 legs a day in a more dynamic environment with a less experienced captain? Seems like the slow/steady pace with more experienced captains at the majors is where they belong.

It's not rocket science man. Either a guy sucks, or they don't. Show up, fly to the SOP/FAR's, go home. Whether it's an RJ or a 737 is irrelevant. You're just pissed because you had to and they didn't. Guess what, you didn't spend years deployed away from family, executing some of the most demanding flying in the world. "Sacrifice" is subjective. One of the perks of volunteer service is the experience the private sector adores in and out of the cockpit. Since you never did it, and have not even the faintest idea the dynamics, training and sacrifice involved, maybe you shouldn't talk to it?

 

[Boxboy]

Haha
Probably not bubba

Box- what I know is military guys performance in civilian ops-
You remember, the OP here-
They don't suck as pilots, they just don't know the civilian world.
No disrespect, but one should have experience before attaining the most valuable and responsible positions in the sector.
Or do you think I ought to be able to sign up in the Air Force, go through A10 school, start flying close air support sorties?
Why can mil guys come right in, often with little to no transport category experience, and immediately go into 121 ops- but I'd have to start at square 1 to have a mil career. Actually we'd be denied by age long ago no matter how capable we are of flying a kc135.
Fair is fair- sounds like a good deal to put in a few years at a regional.

1000hrs 121 time should be as standard a requirement for major airlines as 1000 TPIC

If this offends you, you got a serious arrogance problem.

I just flew - last night - with a new upgrade - turned the wrong way twice taxiing and told me that "taxiing was the hardest part of the job", and was overwhelmed by basic MELs.
Capable, and will get better, but for $250k/year- maybe you should have done this type of op before.

Hey Wave,
I'm gonna beat this dead horse for one last time. Please don't think of what I'm about to say as arrogance. I feel very fortunate to have had an opportunity to serve and be a part of Uncle Sam's flying fraternity.

Uncle Sam doesn't spend millions of dollars on just anyone to fly his airplanes. Uncle Sam's training program has proven track record that it is extremely effective; we've achieved air superiority in every war/conflict where our presence was made known. We can agree that we have the mightiest military force in the world (though coming to an end slowly... whole different can of warms).
You keep referring to 121 time and how much the military folks need experience in this subject. What is so hard about it, if you don't mind me asking? We all have access to the FAR/AIM, FOM, MEL, aircraft manuals, etc. We are all literate. The airlines don't even require you to memorize the FOM or the systems manual, as was required in the AF. The memorization items in the airline world is minimal. They train to the lowest common denominator. Besides, in this day and age, upgrades will take a decade or more so we, the dumb ex-mil types, have plenty of time to catch up. I remember upgrading to aircraft commander in less than a year, flying all over God's planet. My buddy who flew F-16s was leading a 4 ship into combat with just over 500 hours in the jet. You think we should have received remedial 121/135 training?
From my experience, the airline flying is exponentially easier than any flying I did in the military. All of the planning is done by dispatch, the hotels are setup, crew meals are on board the aircraft... we show up and fly the jet from point A to point B. The bottom line is that the ex-mil types are trainable and can adapt to the major airline flying. That's my .02.

 

[densoo]

My tour in the American Toy Company (ATC) has some to do with it, I guess.

That would be AETC to the younger folk. Spent 10 years there combined between the two.

 

[ragman]

"I just flew - last night - with a new upgrade - turned the wrong way twice taxiing....."

You are wrong about something there Wave. You both turned the wrong way twice. There's two people up there for a reason. I think we've all attended retirement dinners and listened to the retirees thank the many Captains, FO's and FE's who have kept them off the Chief Pilot's radar over the years. I can't help but think that if you were doing what you were supposed to do in the right seat you could have helped your Captain out. Also...how long does it take to upgrade at SW? After all those years in the right seat the MEL is that mysterious? Seriously!

 

[DCAA320]

Happy Memorial Day everyone, enjoy your BBQ

 

[DCAA320]

EVERY SINGLE MIL PILOT IS A HERO ON MEMORIAL DAY

Thanks Bro -_-

 

[Russ]

Personally, I'd extend that to all service members.

 

[pilotyip]

The bottom line is that the ex-mil types are trainable and can adapt to the major airline flying. That's my .02.

bingo give that man a cigar, 121 training is just another training evolution, matching my .02. But I will admitt, there are some ex-mil jerks out there and I have flown with him, I don't think he liked Navy pilots

 

[nordo_2]

bingo give that man a cigar, 121 training is just another training evolution, matching my .02. But I will admitt, there are some ex-mil jerks out there and I have flown with him, I don't think he liked Navy pilots

And, its because they all have college degrees, from college's nowadays.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

1000hrs 121 time should be as standard a requirement for major airlines as 1000 TPIC

If this offends you, you got a serious arrogance problem.

Spare me the crying violin dude. If you really want to feel like the red headed bastard step child in the hiring process, try being a corporate/135 pilot.

HR interviewer: "What is a HS-125" (as she pulls a few aviation books out of the stack next to her desk)

Me: No, it's not in the "East European Helicopter" guide, not in the "Aircraft of the USMC", do you know what a Learjet and a Gulfstream are?

HR: "Uhhhh, yes"

Me: It's a biz jet between the two in size.


Personally, I wouldn't hire you commuter dorks, half of whom Daddy wrote a check for some "be a pilot" college. I'd skip a bunch of military weenies also. Tell some of those guys we're diverting to a new field without a 5 hour morning briefing and they "wig out" :laugh:

Too bad there aren't 20,000 Learjet check runners available with 3000 hours in a LR-25, half the time with inop yaw dampers. :beer:

Even better is the ramp for of charter birds at a ramp near an auto plant short of parts at 3 am. Made the Star Wars bar scene look like an Iowa Rotary club meeting (YIP's seen this)

 

[el raton]

Spare me the crying violin dude. If you really want to feel like the red headed bastard step child in the hiring process, try being a corporate/135 pilot.

HR interviewer: "What is a HS-125" (as she pulls a few aviation books out of the stack next to her desk)

Me: No, it's not in the "East European Helicopter" guide, not in the "Aircraft of the USMC", do you know what a Learjet and a Gulfstream are?

HR: "Uhhhh, yes"

Me: It's a biz jet between the two in size.


Personally, I wouldn't hire you commuter dorks, half of whom Daddy wrote a check for some "be a pilot" college. I'd skip a bunch of military weenies also. Tell some of those guys we're diverting to a new field without a 5 hour morning briefing and they "wig out" :laugh:

Too bad there aren't 20,000 Learjet check runners available with 3000 hours in a LR-25, half the time with inop yaw dampers. :beer:

Even better is the ramp for of charter birds at a ramp near an auto plant short of parts at 3 am. Made the Star Wars bar scene look like an Iowa Rotary club meeting (YIP's seen this)

I wish I could have seen that things were going to improve when I was a freight dog, then I would have taken the time to enjoy the moment....nothing like the Lear 24/25 stuffed with seat covers!!

 

[densoo]

Even better is the ramp for of charter birds at a ramp near an auto plant short of parts at 3 am. Made the Star Wars bar scene look like an Iowa Rotary club meeting (YIP's seen this)

And that's why we read these boards. Occasionally we read something truly entertaining.

 

[pilotyip]

And, its because they all have college degrees, from college's nowadays.

Oh please, not again, we all know that a college degree had nothing to do with flying an airplane. I flew with non-degreed guys who went straight to DAL when they got out. Want to turn this into a college degree thread, I am game if you are

 

[JumpersAway]

Oh please, not again, we all know that a college degree had nothing to do with flying an airplane. I flew with non-degreed guys who went straight to DAL when they got out. Want to turn this into a college degree thread, I am game if you are

Pilotyip- the truth of the matter, right or wrong, effective or ineffective, is that a college degree is necessary to get a job at a legacy today. Will that change in 5 years or more? Probably. However, today the fact remains that if you have a degree, you will probably get a call. If you don't- you are not.

 

[pilotyip]

Pilotyip- the truth of the matter, right or wrong, effective or ineffective, is that a college degree is necessary to get a job at a legacy today. Will that change in 5 years or more? Probably. However, today the fact remains that if you have a degree, you will probably get a call. If you don't- you arenot.

I have never disagreed with that, because of stupid HR policies, those without a college degree are limited to where they can successfully apply. But the college degree by itself is no proof of superior intelligence.

We are not talking about Yale, U of M, or even MIT as the universal example of getting a college degree; we are talking about a degree from Bumblebee State. The degree from Bumblebee State requires no time on campus, no classroom attendance, and only money. Yet the Bumblebee State will still check the box in the lower left corner, same as Yale.

Many college graduates tried getting into Navy Flight Training in the mid 60?s to avoid being drafted into the Army, many did not make it because the intelligence levels required to have a high probability of successful program completion were in excess of those held by those who had attended college. Yet many non-college grads were hired and had a high completion rate in the Navy Flight Training during the 60's

Plus the degree is not needed until the last step, you do not need to rack up $100K of debt for four years of on-campus training. It can be done over a 10 year period while building flight time.

 

[maru657]

This all seems to boil down to the requirements of various airlines. Requirements which seem to have nothing to do with actual skill or experience. SW just hired a class of all military trained pilots. The question isn't the requirements, it's who's setting those requirements. HR is not some mysterious group it's policies are set by pilots directly or in-directly. If those pilots are military trained pilots it's hiring policies will reflect their experience level. Which, once again will support a bias. There is a surplus of pilots flying everything from DC-8's to 747's who were passed over no doubt in order to make up this class.

 

[labbats]

Seems you can't fight HR any more than you can fight city hall.

While we won't change the hiring practices at least the possibility exists that this thread shone a light on it and made more of us aware.

As I sign off I would like to add a thank you on Memorial Day to all those who served and came home to fly for airlines, but especially to those who didn't. Your sacrifices make this a better country and world for both me and my family.

 

[SIG600]

Hey Wave,
I'm gonna beat this dead horse for one last time. Please don't think of what I'm about to say as arrogance. I feel very fortunate to have had an opportunity to serve and be a part of Uncle Sam's flying fraternity.

Uncle Sam doesn't spend millions of dollars on just anyone to fly his airplanes. Uncle Sam's training program has proven track record that it is extremely effective; we've achieved air superiority in every war/conflict where our presence was made known. We can agree that we have the mightiest military force in the world (though coming to an end slowly... whole different can of warms).
You keep referring to 121 time and how much the military folks need experience in this subject. What is so hard about it, if you don't mind me asking? We all have access to the FAR/AIM, FOM, MEL, aircraft manuals, etc. We are all literate. The airlines don't even require you to memorize the FOM or the systems manual, as was required in the AF. The memorization items in the airline world is minimal. They train to the lowest common denominator. Besides, in this day and age, upgrades will take a decade or more so we, the dumb ex-mil types, have plenty of time to catch up. I remember upgrading to aircraft commander in less than a year, flying all over God's planet. My buddy who flew F-16s was leading a 4 ship into combat with just over 500 hours in the jet. You think we should have received remedial 121/135 training?
From my experience, the airline flying is exponentially easier than any flying I did in the military. All of the planning is done by dispatch, the hotels are setup, crew meals are on board the aircraft... we show up and fly the jet from point A to point B. The bottom line is that the ex-mil types are trainable and can adapt to the major airline flying. That's my .02.

Nailed it.

 

[maru657]

The problem with the above argument is that yes, the majors do almost everything for you. However a lot of freight carriers etc don't. Plenty of young guys flying heavy aircraft worldwide who don't have those options. Many of them are vets also but somehow their greater experience dose'nt count. Once again, look at who influences the hiring policy. If it seems predjucial, and it probably is, why should any these pilots looking for a job ever respect a picket line at these companies.

 

[Turtle21]

16 pages, and this isn't resolved yet?

 

[C-150ETOPS]

16 pages, and this isn't resolved yet?

Listen pal, we are still "airing the grievences"

It's a little early in the holiday season to move onto "feats of strength". :laugh:

 

[SIG600]

16 pages, and this isn't resolved yet?

Pfsh, this is 16 pages of just one thread.

 

[bigboeings]

I'll add my .02 cents to this, because I'm directly affected. After 13 yrs at an ACMI carrier I find myself suddenly on the street looking for a job. With over 10000 hrs. PIC with half of that widebody international. As a Captain at a non scheduled carrier, there was no such thing as easy. I having a hard time getting anyone to call me for an interview and when I do, I'm there with guys with mostly military background. Nothing against them but I do find it a bit biased and disconcerting that they are getting hired . No sour grapes but it is discouraging.

 

[maru657]

I'll add my .02 cents to this, because I'm directly affected. After 13 yrs at an ACMI carrier I find myself suddenly on the street looking for a job. With over 10000 hrs. PIC with half of that widebody international. As a Captain at a non scheduled carrier, there was no such thing as easy. I having a hard time getting anyone to call me for an interview and when I do, I'm there with guys with mostly military background. Nothing against them but I do find it a bit biased and disconcerting that they are getting hired . No sour grapes but it is discouraging.

This is exactly my point, but when they have labor issues and they will eventually, how can they expect for someone to support "them" in any way.

 

[livin'thesim]

For a bunch of supposedly hardened military pilots, a few of them sure seem to have very, very tender feelings.

The merest suggestion that they are not automatically the most skilled and qualified pilot in every circumstance is a thought that many don't seem to be able to resolve without defensively lashing out.

I find this beyond entertaining. In fact, I am going to get some more entertainment by asserting something else.

Suppose you were going to hire street captains to fly for a 121 carrier. Who would be the better choice? A high-time regional captain flying a 90-seat jet, or a military pilot with 1500 hours?

C'mon now, it has been a while since I've seen outlandish rationalizations. Do not disappoint me.

 

[livin'thesim]

name me one civilian school that starts in turbine equipment? Name one where at 250 you have 200 hours of TJ time? Name one that has a screening exam that one in five passes? Name one where the average ACT score is close to 29? Civilian schools are a pay your fee get your B outfits/ Fail a phase check, get more training, try again. In the military school final phase go to the student pilots disposition board

The logical fallacy in this is that this method produces the best-trained military pilot you can get for the time and money invested. I am convinced that if your goal was to create the absolute best civilian 121 pilot using the same methodology, you would use a different training footprint, aircraft mix, and timeline. You probably would have many of the same individuals do well, but you would probably have a different personality profile for "head of the class" than you would for training for a military pilot slot."

Perhaps the military produces a "Formula-1 car" in terms of pilots, and perhaps the civilian world produces a Totota. Unless we are going racing, I would choose to own the Toyota. It's better suited for everyday driving.

I watched two military pilots struggle in my new-hire airline class. Both were former PIC in whatever type it was, I forget. It was a larger transport-type aircraft, though.

They did well in the end, but they were nowhere near the runaway stars of the class.

Ironically, the worst performer in the class (who was civilian) came from another airline flying the exact same type. Go figure.

So, if the military pilot is always and everywhere the superior candidate, then why do we see things like this happen? Are my own eyes deceiving me?

 

[pilotyip]

I watched two military pilots struggle in my new-hire airline class. Both were former PIC in whatever type it was, I forget. It was a larger transport-type aircraft, though.

They did well in the end, but they were nowhere near the runaway stars of the class.

I don't think anyone has stated that the military pilots are the absolute best. But they are uniformly good due to the, screening, weeding out, discipline, and continual training process. Unless you are in combat, you never fly without a training objective.

To a military pilot going into his next job wither it be 121, corp, 135, it is just another training evolution at which they will be successful. Airlines know this.

I know we will now have serious of posts about a military pilot that my brother's next door neighbor's friend at church knows who busted out of 121 training. It does happen but not very often.