Why hire military over your competition?

[pilotyip]

Give it up Wave.Bubba

Hey easy on wavy,wavy has worked harder than any of those pilots who went through a military training program. Wavy's hard work has put Wavy in complete charge of Wavy's career, no timing luck ever played a role in Wavy getting on at SWA. Military trained pilots have not worked that hard and should not have head of the line privileges.

 

[waveflyer]

I think you have a point there. It's true that there are less military guys leaving the service for the airlines, for obvious reasons. The military has steadily been decreasing pilot production. They are a known quantity (in this case, limited quantity).
I agree that pilot skills are mostly based on the individual skills and not their background (mil vs. civ). As I've said, there are knuckleheads everywhere. However, I'll throw in my .02 since I had my license and instrument rating before I went in the military. Obtaining a pilot slot in the military is not easy (technical degree, good grades, high test scores, physically fit, leadership skills, etc.). In my AFROTC graduating class, 10% got pilot slots. In my pilot training class, 1/3 washed out (mostly in tweets and a couple in T-38s). The military training environment is pretty intense IMO. Flying in the military is not just about stick and rudder skills. What I'm trying to say is that military trained pilots are "trainable"; the airlines and corporations know what they are getting when they hire a ex-military pilot.

But they certainly seem to have trouble adapting to civilian life. They, by and large, are weak leaders of airline crew, and tend to be so opinionated through law of primacy, that they aren't as trainable.

I have no doubt that getting a military flight slot can be difficult. Sometimes. Not every time and not even all that often. Excellence is excellence. If a civilian chooses good schools and performs excellently, that is just as respectable as the mil pilot.

Again, why would intensity matter in the airlines. Except for my 1900 gig, which washed out a fair amount as well, mind you, including two mil guys in my class who over estimated their current abilities, always impressing on us what they USED TO BE.

And that's the crux for me, is so much of military hierarchy and meritocracy is based on how one performed in the past, vs what they have evolved into today.
Who cares if a pilot got straight As as a high school freshman?


Btw, Yip- that last post was as dumb as you've ever posted. So contradictory in baseline logic that it doesn't deserve it's own response. Figure out what you actually think and let us know.

 

[waveflyer]

Also, I have to comment on your bolded assertion above. If you really believe that your Cessna time alone made you "just as qualified" as military guys' flight experience, then you are either a liar, an idiot, or plain (or plane) deluding yourself. I'm pretty sure that you would be alone in the world, thinking that flying simple, fixed-gear, 120mph Cessnas around and around in a traffic pattern, and doing 50nm "cross-countries" is somehow equivalent to flying all complex, turbine and jet aircraft, from hour one, all over the world, following all manner of air traffic rules. At 200 military hours I was flying, and at 1000 military hours I was PIC, in a heavy Boeing 707, flying all over the country and the world. And you're really claiming that 1000 Cessna hours in 152s/172s is equivalent to that?

Like I said, I agree that when a civilian guy has the many hours of experience of flying turbines around the country in regional airlines, then we're talking parity, but until that point, the military guys' training and experience ARE better, and more desirable by anyone trying to hire quality pilots.

I'm sure you don't realize this, Wave, but you are EXACTLY as obstinate and tribalistic as the worst "kernal" in the company, with your incessant insistence that the civilian way is always the "better" way. How can you not see that? I'll bet that when you upgrade, you're going to be one of those captains who takes out your insecurities on a new, bright and shiny F/O, just because he happens to be military-trained. He'll show up for your pairing, eager and happy, and he'll leave thinking, "what a d1ck!" I was fortunate to fly with a few of those guys when I was an F/O.

Whoever it was on this board who said it was all about the attitude was right. If you have enough experience (civilian or military or combined) to get here, it's your attitude that's the only thing that matters. Guys who continue to insist that it's only the military way that's the "best," or guys like you who continue to insist that it's the civilian way that's the "best" (and especially those who like to whine about the military guys getting unfair breaks) are the ones who make our easy job harder. Who really gives a crap where you came from? If you have the experience and qualifications to be here, and you have a good attitude, that's really all that really matters.

Think about that for a while. Please.

Bubba[/]

Bubba
Please.
Save the hyperbole. As much as it makes me smile, that I easily turn you into a bigger troll than I am, you really don't get this subject from a civilian perspective anymore than I "get" the mil one.
It is not lost on me than ANY COMPETENT pilot will defend their background-

Yet here's the deal: Military pilots aren't the ones being discriminated by SWA in the hiring process. So your whole argument breaks down on that one fact.

So save it. It's not an insecurity when southwest ran a class with 26 ex mil guys in it.

Civilians aren't the ones showing up with a sense of superiority, nor a sense of entitlement. And you REALLY THINK ITS CIVILIANS MAKING THIS JOB HARD OUT ONLINE??

Dude, your head is in the sand, and frankly civilians at southwest have earned a better place at the table than they've gotten. Sorry that offends you, but the fact that it does is telling.

Btw, I will admit that cessnas are as qualified as a mil pilot. But also know that it just became illegal for a civilian pilot to fly any 121 airplane with less than 1500 hours, regardless of the quality of training. Another barrier that a civilian pilot has to march through before getting a chance to fly a turbine anything. So you had opportunities earlier in the flight time gig. I was a captain of a 1900 at 23 and a half. Doing the actual job in a variety of turboprops and jets, with 4 times the flight time of the average ex mil pilot at my first legacy.
My continual point is that the pilots actually doing the job effectively being required to have more flight time doing the job they're being hired to do, vs the pilots who are doing the least applicable flying is ridiculous. And why do you as a heavy crew pilot put up with this hookup of fighter pilots??

Fighter pilot time ought to be considered like helo time. Very respectable, often dangerous, but shouldn't count towards major airline mins at the full rate. How absurd is it that the least applicable type of flying is actually given extra credit ?

Again, for the 80% that are great- I apologize, but I firmly disagree with major airline traditional hiring practices and the good ole boy network that keeps giving them this leg up.

If you don't like it bubba, go find a restroom. Stare long and hard at the bottom of the toilet until you can see your reflection, and then realize that I do not care.

As proud as you are of your background, so are we of ours. Yet we have artificial barrier after artificial barrier put in our way between us and the truly valuable jobs. It's bullsh/t

 

[waveflyer]

Having been on both sides of the fence, is goes something like this. All the military guys that have flown transport type aircraft are doing the exact same thing that is down on the civilian side...with a few exceptions. It's the same weather, arrivals, departures etc.

Now once you venture into the fighter community, even I have difficulty understanding how a 2000 hour F-16 guy ends up directly at a major. Single pilot, single crew, bombs on target, etc etc etc.

It is just different.

This bugs me more than transport mil pilots. Yet still, all things being equal, transport mil pilots aren't operating under 121- and most will have much less time in transport jets than their civilian counterpart in a major airline class....
????

 

[waveflyer]

Guys it is not the airlines that are pulling the applicants anymore. If you look AA and Southwest are using the same company and look at the numbers getting the interviews about 80 to 90% military. So it is what the outsourced company finds important. it is futile to whine about it just sit and wait until your number comes up. That is all you can do. Stay positive the hiring just started. I figure all that are qualified will get a call in the next 3-4 years. just my opinion.

Just means that those with the power to influence the algorithms are ex mil and systemically influence the system....
Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[pilotyip]

Btw, Yip- that last post was as dumb as you've ever posted. So contradictory in baseline logic that it doesn't deserve it's own response. Figure out what you actually think and let us know.

come on, don't you remember your slam to me from a couple years ago, that I was not as successful as you in my career because I did not work as hard as you. That my contention of the elements of timing and luck playing a major part in our careers did not apply to you because you have worked so hard at your career and I have not. Also you did not address my post of the average military pilot probably having much higher ACT scores than the average civilian pilots, an indicator of greater probability of success in training as measured by the college entrance requirements. How about that one?

 

[ragman]

I have observed the civ vs mil cat fight on this and other forums for many years. Allow me to share my perspective on the issue based on my 44 years as a professional pilot. 1. Good luck and good timing are the most important factors in getting on with a major airline. I know many talented ex mil pilots who had neither and could not get hired. 2. During my career I have shared a cockpit with many hundreds a talented aviators. I spent 21 years in the USAF mostly in jet transports, 16 with a major, 3 with a fractional and 2 as a contract pilot with a management outfit. During my career I have flown with only a infinitesimally small small minority of "knuckleheads". Good pilots are good pilots and knuckleheads are knuckleheads. I don't think a civ or mil background has any correlation in that regard. 3. In my experience, major airline flying was by far the least challenging and fractional/charter flying the most. 3. Excluding combat, one of the most challenging aspects of mil flying was the responsibility of command at such an early stage in your development as a pilot (in MAC UPT grads were considered for upgrade at 1000 hours and sent off in command of C-141s to the 4 corners of the world). I don't think adopting to the 121 world in a major airline is particularly tough or a big deal for any good pilot, regardless of background. Any new hire at SW or any other major is going to spend years in the right seat in any case.

 

[ragman]

I want to add 4. As an FO, take advantage of those years in the right seat and learn something from every a Captain you fly with. You can learn as much if not more from the bad ones! There's a lot of way " to skin a cat" as they say. Once you're in the left seat you'll be doing it your way. It's easy to stop learning when your way is the only way you see.

 

[freightdogfred]

I have observed the civ vs mil cat fight on this and other forums for many years. Allow me to share my perspective on the issue based on my 44 years as a professional pilot. 1. Good luck and good timing are the most important factors in getting on with a major airline. I know many talented ex mil pilots who had neither and could not get hired. 2. During my career I have shared a cockpit with many hundreds a talented aviators. I spent 21 years in the USAF mostly in jet transports, 16 with a major, 3 with a fractional and 2 as a contract pilot with a management outfit. During my career I have flown with only a infinitesimally small small minority of "knuckleheads". Good pilots are good pilots and knuckleheads are knuckleheads. I don't think a civ or mil background has any correlation in that regard. 3. In my experience, major airline flying was by far the least challenging and fractional/charter flying the most. 3. Excluding combat, one of the most challenging aspects of mil flying was the responsibility of command at such an early stage in your development as a pilot (in MAC UPT grads were considered for upgrade at 1000 hours and sent off in command of C-141s to the 4 corners of the world). I don't think adopting to the 121 world in a major airline is particularly tough or a big deal for any good pilot, regardless of background. Any new hire at SW or any other major is going to spend years in the right seat in any case.

Good post, right on the money. The sharpest pilot I ever flew with was ex-military. The worst pilot I ever flew with was ex-military. I emphasized a key point of your well written response.

 

[Capn Butthead]

I have heard of training busts. None by ex mil. I have heard some pretty adamant burn the place down comments from pilots, none ex mil.

That's funny scoreboard...because in my initial ground school 9 years ago there were 4 busts in the time I was there. 2 were from Luke F16 guys...one was a nice guy just a lot going on. The other was a complete ******************************. He refused to go by his real name only his call sign. He wouldn't sit at the table with a bunch of us 28 year old regional pukes...until he busted. The other 2 were a kc135 guy and a F15 guy out of Massachusetts. There are hard facts for you....I can give you the call sign of 2 of them off of the top of my head.

 

[waveflyer]

come on, don't you remember your slam to me from a couple years ago, that I was not as successful as you in my career because I did not work as hard as you. That my contention of the elements of timing and luck playing a major part in our careers did not apply to you because you have worked so hard at your career and I have not. Also you did not address my post of the average military pilot probably having much higher ACT scores than the average civilian pilots, an indicator of greater probability of success in training as measured by the college entrance requirements. How about that one?

No I don't remember that yip.
But I do work hard, albeit not as much at flying anymore, so if the shoe fits, that's for you to ponder....

Well, why don't you implement that one yip.
As crazy as it sounds, SWA doesn't ask my advice on hiring and is certainly better off for it.

I do not ask for mil pilots to not be proud. I don't ask them to not take advantage of opportunities try can get. I advocate for the good civilian pilots who deal with a lot of made up adversity so mil guys can get preference. That's my point

 

[SWA Bubba]

Tell, you what, Wave...

I'll break this up into smaller segments, since you've already pointed out that your attention span is very short.

Yet here's the deal: Military pilots aren't the ones being discriminated by SWA in the hiring process. So your whole argument breaks down on that one fact.

So save it. It's not an insecurity when southwest ran a class with 26 ex mil guys in it.

It is your OPINION that civilian-trained pilots are being discriminated against. That's all--your opinion. And one not widely held, other than by people just like you. And yes, it IS an insecurity (not to mention probably paranoia and rationalization) for you to take a single snapshot in time (recent class military percentage) to extrapolate that into a culture of "discrimination against civilian-trained pilots." I say that, because Southwest STILL has greater than 50% civilian-trained pilot force.*

If the entire company's pilot force was 90% military-trained, I'd agree that you have a point. Since it's FAR, FAR from that, in fact more civilian than military trained, then YES, your whining about one class clearly is insecurity or rationalization.

Clear enough?

Bubba

* To put this in a left-wing perspective for you, Wave: perhaps the recent class of mostly military was some sort of "Affirmative Action" to make up for past discrimination against military-trained pilots. You know, since there's a lot more civilian-trained guys here than military-trained guys at Southwest.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Civilians aren't the ones showing up with a sense of superiority, nor a sense of entitlement. And you REALLY THINK ITS CIVILIANS MAKING THIS JOB HARD OUT ONLINE??

Really? Like YOUR sense of superiority? Like YOUR sense of entitlement due to your flight experiences? You've bitched time and again about military guys saying they were better, and then, from the other side of your mouth insist that civilian-trained pilots are "better." Tell, me Wave: exactly what is the difference between a military guy disparaging you by saying his training was better, and YOU disparaging military guys saying that your training is better? Do you really not see that it's exactly the same?

And no, I'm not saying that it's "civilians" who are making this job hard online. I'm saying that it's elitists like the "kernals" you describe, and in addition the civilians like YOU who insist that they're better, that tribalize the pilot force and make the job harder. Is that any clearer for you?

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Just means that those with the power to influence the algorithms are ex mil and systemically influence the system....
Garbage in, garbage out.

Well, finally you admit that it's no longer any kind of "good ole boy" influence at Southwest. It's an independent company, unaffiliated with Southwest, that weights the experiences and qualifications of our prospective applicants.

Phew! At least now we can get you to stop whining about that! That's one thing down.

Bubba

 

[labbats]

Since the majors have started their hiring in the last few months the vast majority of newhires have been military. That's a fact and the entire reason for making this post.

Mudslinging aside, I simply ask why. Why would you hire someone in the military over your competition that wouldn't need to consolidate their hours and has already flown your aircraft? It makes no sense. We all know it and yet anyone who asks why gets sidetracked with the back and forth of who is better online. Forget about online and accept that there is currently mass discrimination for military over civilian right now. Some posts have said to get over it... well that's not so easily done in our seniority based system. It's unfair and it shouldn't be defended.

When you have an entire newhire class at Southwest that is military that is wrong. Same goes for the Delta and AA hiring lately.

I have immense respect for the military pilots. I simply don't accept the current hiring standards are justified.

What percent of ATP rated pilots are military? 5%? 10%? Yet they receive 80-90-100% of newhire slots at the majors? C'mon already.