FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[The Architect]

Oops..."we"?

Since we couldn't abide by restrictions on how information had to pass through the union first the access was denied.

"...we..."

We?

 

[CL300Pilot]

The big issue I see watching this going back and forth is that WE, Flexjet and FLOPS are one group of pilots under OneSky, yet WE are bickering like little girls. We all have our doubts and concerns, but let me ask you this. Instead of bickering and fighting, which accomplishes nothing, why not calmly and rationally try and educate each other. There is no end to the he said/ she said issue. TWA and others are correct that from our side of the fence, the Flexjet pilots stand to lose a whole lot more than our FLOPS brethern do.

One of the biggest issues the FLOPS pilots are fighting against, and it is one that still confuses me as I talk to you guys on the road, is that most of your issues began under MS. In talking to you, KR was no where in the picture during this. Also, when I talk to you on the road, I find that most of your guys that are pro union are angry and the anti union guys are not. I have a hard time personally considering something when a lot of your guys are so pro and yet miserable. I realize your contract, while there is some good in it, honestly stinks. But instead of being upset, why not place that anger into getting representatives that are going to make your lives better in this next round of contract negotiations?

I can tell you this, and I know it is not the feeling of most of the guys I have met at FLOPS. When you have one of your captains come onto one of our 300's after a Flex crew extends an olive branch, and sits it the left seat, it does no good when you have someone like that saying, "I am sure going to enjoy taking your seat."

One final thing and if someone can tell me how to put a picture on here, I will repost the infamous slide. TWA is also correct in that no where in the infamous slide does it say that KR plans to integrate the pilot groups. Based on the slide, and I have to figure it is accurate based on the conversations here from FLOPS guys, it will take your union to approach the NMB for a single carrier vote. If your group does not pursue that, then you get to work under you contract as is and we get to work with our management as we have since the inception of the company. It seems to me that so long as the 1108 does not pursue single carrier status, we get to stay one big happy separate family.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

I can tell you this, and I know it is not the feeling of most of the guys I have met at FLOPS. When you have one of your captains come onto one of our 300's after a Flex crew extends an olive branch, and sits it the left seat, it does no good when you have someone like that saying, "I am sure going to enjoy taking your seat."

This was actually one of my good friends who was the CA. It happened in New Orleans. I wasn't gonna bring this up since this doesn't seem to be the attitude of the average FO pilot, but boy he sure made an impression. My friend is real quiet and super laid back. I got the call of "can you believe what this FO pilot did." Slowtation captain, was this you?

My only two experiences that haven't been positive was a FO in DAL that was very angry at me and love the F bomb. The other crew was in PDK. As we got off the plane the approached us and told me to have my FO put in 4 stripes because that us the way it is done at FO. He said we worked for you guys now and there are a lot if changes coming so we can operate like FO. I just walked away.

The reason we are afraid of the 1108 is because of the words that come from its members. I know these crews are in the minority and most of your pilots are awesome, but the VERY load vocal minority speaks for you unfortunately.

Bet you haven't run into FJ crews telling you how we can't wait to screw you over.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

"...we..."

We?

We = Flexjet

Quit trying to read things into posts.

 

[slowtation capt]

This was actually one of my good friends who was the CA. It happened in New Orleans. I wasn't gonna bring this up since this doesn't seem to be the attitude of the average FO pilot, but boy he sure made an impression. My friend is real quiet and super laid back. I got the call of "can you believe what this FO pilot did." Slowtation captain, was this you?

Yes it was me. What a joke

Are you kidding, I would never do something as idiotic as that.
Go back and look at my posts. You might not like what I say, but I have always said what is fair for you and fair for us, everyone is to maintain their seats and positions. Never have I said anything about trying to take over.

Trust me, these examples that you gave, they are the small group, They are looking stupid to you and they look stupid to us, and make us look stupid. They not only do things to harm this entire pilot group but they also do stupid stuff internately to hurt the FO group within the FO group.

 

[CL300Pilot]

nevermind...

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Picture yourself in a boat on a river
With tangerine trees and marmalade skies
Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly
A girl with kaleidoscope eyes

Celophane flowers of yellow and green
Towering over your head
Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes
And she's gone

 

[The Architect]

This is Good

The reason we are afraid of the 1108 is because of the words that come from its members. I know these crews are in the minority and most of your pilots are awesome, but the VERY load vocal minority speaks for you unfortunately.

Bet you haven't run into FJ crews telling you how we can't wait to screw you over.

Very good points.

Those crews are the minority. And most of the Flight Options pilots are reasonable, eductated and well-spoken. Just like Flexjet pilots.

So, everyone knows that extremists exist in both pilot groups and will certainly be the ones to find everything that was done wrong post-merger. Knowing that going in, reasonable exchanges can occur with the majority that are in the middle now.

Let's try to have those type of exchanges. A single carrier determination is inevitable. And a vote for representation will happen. Everyone should spend the time to learn about the pros and cons in order to make a decision.

 

[The Architect]

We the People...

We = Flexjet

Quit trying to read things into posts.

Don't be offended. I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

If "we" = Flexjet, the sentence would read "Since Flexjet [we] couldn't abide by restrictions on how information had to pass through the union first the access was denied."

Get it. First, Flexjet didn't deny access. Senior management with oversight of both pilot groups denied access. Yammer is available to every employee in both groups except Flight Options pilots. How dumb is that? But that's another discussion. Second, it is not about "trying to read things into posts." That sentence sounds as if though management wrote it or it was simply the result of a copy and paste from some other dialog. Just seeking the origin.

See, a reasonable question with a reasonable answer.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Don't be offended. I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

If "we" = Flexjet, the sentence would read "Since Flexjet [we] couldn't abide by restrictions on how information had to pass through the union first the access was denied."

Get it. First, Flexjet didn't deny access. Senior management with oversight of both pilot groups denied access. Yammer is available to every employee in both groups except Flight Options pilots. How dumb is that? But that's another discussion. Second, it is not about "trying to read things into posts." That sentence sounds as if though management wrote it or it was simply the result of a copy and paste from some other dialog. Just seeking the origin.

See, a reasonable question with a reasonable answer.

You are correct. The union was only concerned with how management would directly communicate with FO pilots. Of course I have no idea what exact restrictions were requested. I do believe that the 1108 had no objection to allowing crew to crew communications.

I think this would be a good idea as long as the conversation would be civil. I think it would be since Yammer uses real names so you can't hide behind a screen name and make bold and untrue statements.

 

[ProFracPilot]

The argument that the union doesn't want management communicating directly with pilots is a straw man. Management has no contractural limitations prohibiting communication. Frankly, they have the ability and every right to communicate directly with the pilots as often as they wish. The Yammer restriction is all about preventing pilots of both groups from communicating directly with one another, which is certainly something I believe the union would support. Regardless of what we've been told, logic dictates the restrictions come from the management side.

 

[CL-350]

Architect, my compadres are asking you some good pointed questions and you are dodging them like a congressman. Why is single carrier and integration inevitable? Can't we exist as separate pilot groups? Can Ricci march down to the local NMB office and file on his own? If you guys don't file, then why would the NMB rule? It has been my experience when someone or a group is overly anxious to make a deal and the other person or group is reluctant, then someone is about to get screwed. Just don't petition the NMB and this whole discussion will fade away. If you can't let go of this issue then obviously your intentions are hostile as it looks like any deal with Flops pilots will be at your gain and our loss. Answers please, no fluff.

 

[Photoflight]

Why would KR need permission from the NMB to combine the pilot groups?

 

[CL300Pilot]

Why would KR need permission from the NMB to combine the pilot groups?

My understanding, and others more educated on the matter can answer, is that it requires 50% + 1 to petition the NMB to look into whether it is a single carrier or not. Given the understanding from both sides that KR does not want the union, if he was able to do it himself, he would already have done so. While I also understand that the 50% +1 is either FLOPS or Flex, I don't see anyone here at Flex wanting to petition the NMB to make a ruling. Therefore, the petition to NMB for single carrier status must come from FLOPS and the 1108.

As people have stated her numerous times, since most of the Flexjet pilots want nothing to do with a union, and FLOPS pilots want their union, then why would anyone petition the NMB? I know that I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but it seems to me that both pilot groups get what they want by no one petitioning the NMB. Please correct me if I am wrong.

On a side note, it sure is nice to see dialogue from opposing sides and no BS jabs being thrown.

 

[Photoflight]

I would think it probably has more to do with KR having to get all the owners to sign away from thier current companies and into the OneSky group with either Flexjet or flight options service levels.

I think it would be easier for him if the union demanded it. Then it could be shown to the owners that it's not his fault or doing he can simply blame the union.


But other than contractual obligations what's keeping him from simply combining the groups. The NMB, from what I've gathered, is more an employee or labor group resource.

 

[shanes123]

It seems like Flex Pilots think Flops pilots want to combine lists. I don't want to Combine anything with Flex.. How would that benefit FLOPS..Riccis wants the single carrier status..Keep your Flex at will to work rules..I will take my lower pay without being fired for No reason with no Notice..I will take my lower pay to be able to say no to something illegal or flying over 14 or calling fatigue. I also agree we should stay separate but ricci won't allow it..

 

[Club ORD FO]

It seems like Flex Pilots think Flops pilots want to combine lists. I don't want to Combine anything with Flex.. How would that benefit FLOPS..Riccis wants the single carrier status..Keep your Flex at will to work rules..I will take my lower pay without being fired for No reason with no Notice..I will take my lower pay to be able to say no to something illegal or flying over 14 or calling fatigue. I also agree we should stay separate but ricci won't allow it..

Well that is why we are confused. Ricci can't force a merger because you are union and we are not. He can't petition the NMB for single carrier status, only the employees (or their representative, as in a union) can. So if you guys don't petition the NMB, then we continue along like we are right now. Why do you HAVE to petition the NMB?

 

[BE40Driver]

If KR wants to move FJ to FO 135 cert. then only Pilots on Flops seniority list can do the flying per CBA. He needs to merge the list so we can all fly on one certificate.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

If KR wants to move FJ to FO 135 cert. then only Pilots on Flops seniority list can do the flying per CBA. He needs to merge the list so we can all fly on one certificate.

What makes you think it will be the FO certificate.

The Jet Solutions certificate was purchased by One Sky.

You guys will transition to the new certificate and that solves this problem.

Neither side seems to want to merge, so we stay separate lists on one certificate.

You play by your union rules and we have direct contracts with management.

This seems to be what both sides want, so leave the single carrier status alone and everyone stays happy.

 

[V1 Rotate]

It seems like Flex Pilots think Flops pilots want to combine lists. I don't want to Combine anything with Flex.. How would that benefit FLOPS..Riccis wants the single carrier status..Keep your Flex at will to work rules..I will take my lower pay without being fired for No reason with no Notice..I will take my lower pay to be able to say no to something illegal or flying over 14 or calling fatigue. I also agree we should stay separate but ricci won't allow it..

In my nearly ten years here at Flex no one has been fired because they weren't liked by the leadership. No one has been fired because they wouldn't go over 14 hours. No one has been fired for calling in fatigued. Your post is ignorant because you know not of what you speak. I know of no one here that hasn't had a slap on the wrist for doing something dumb. We all screw up from time to time. The ones that get fired are the ones that lie about it or try and cheat the company out of money. They deserved to be fired. I also assure you that we are more than happy to take our higher pay and better better benefits over your 1108.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

You play by your union rules and we have direct contracts with management.

This seems to be what both sides want, so leave the single carrier status alone and everyone stays happy.

TWA - Even if "this seems to be what both sides want" was accurate, it was Uncle that first said, "2 separate companies" then "Combine them!".

If that's what you want, you should be addressing management directly. Let us know how that works out. And no, "leaving the single carrier status alone" will not simply make everyone happy.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

You play by your union rules and we have direct contracts with management.

This seems to be what both sides want, so leave the single carrier status alone and everyone stays happy.

TWA - Even if "this seems to be what both sides want" was accurate, it was Uncle that first said, "2 separate companies" then "Combine them!".

If that's what you want, you should be addressing management directly. Let us know how that works out. And no, "leaving the single carrier status alone" will not simply make everyone happy.

Management has stated they have several plans in place for our future. One of those is running the company under a single certificate without single carrier status. They have stated this several times. It was even on one of the slides KR had posted during his last presentation.

So far from what I can figure single carrier only benefits the FO pilots.

I think we will pass.

Thank you very much.

 

[shanes123]

In my nearly ten years here at Flex no one has been fired because they weren't liked by the leadership. No one has been fired because they wouldn't go over 14 hours. No one has been fired for calling in fatigued. Your post is ignorant because you know not of what you speak. I know of no one here that hasn't had a slap on the wrist for doing something dumb. We all screw up from time to time. The ones that get fired are the ones that lie about it or try and cheat the company out of money. They deserved to be fired. I also assure you that we are more than happy to take our higher pay and better better benefits over your 1108.

Your the ignorant one for thinking you have the same management. You guys that believe this are really clueless. Flex jet is gone. Get it thru your head.. Bombardier sold you down the river.. Rico's running the show his way not your precious DW. She will be lucky if she's here in 6 months. Ask the travel air guys where there leadership went. It was the same old story with them they actually even brought in there chief pilot and told us he was our new CP. Just like your DW. But he wasn't included in any of the meetings or decisions a CP makes. Flex JET iS DEAD. Riccis in charge and it's Riccis way or the airway. Gonna be the airway for DW real soon. Bah bye

 

[shanes123]

Management has stated they have several plans in place for our future. One of those is running the company under a single certificate without single carrier status. They have stated this several times. It was even on one of the slides KR had posted during his last presentation.

So far from what I can figure single carrier only benefits the FO pilots.

I think we will pass.

Thank you very much.

Single carrier does not benefit flops one bit. Especially if we have to work with a idiot like you. Go kiss some more management ass. Your a stooge and Ricci will use you abuse you and lose you. Like a school girl. Can't wait to see it. But you will still cry it's the unions fault because your not smart enough to realize how stupid you really are.

 

[slowtation capt]

Unions opening the message board to Flex pilots

forum.ibt1108.org

Don't know how to tell you guys on how to access it, but the Union wants us all to communicate.

 

[slowtation capt]

Management has stated they have several plans in place for our future. One of those is running the company under a single certificate without single carrier status. They have stated this several times. It was even on one of the slides KR had posted during his last presentation.

So far from what I can figure single carrier only benefits the FO pilots.

I think we will pass.

Thank you very much.

Hmmmm, yeaaaaah. KR also stated Flex and Flops will be run as 2 seperate companies. That's all ready out the door.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Your the ignorant one for thinking you have the same management. You guys that believe this are really clueless. Flex jet is gone. Get it thru your head.. Bombardier sold you down the river.. Rico's running the show his way not your precious DW. She will be lucky if she's here in 6 months. Ask the travel air guys where there leadership went. It was the same old story with them they actually even brought in there chief pilot and told us he was our new CP. Just like your DW. But he wasn't included in any of the meetings or decisions a CP makes. Flex JET iS DEAD. Riccis in charge and it's Riccis way or the airway. Gonna be the airway for DW real soon. Bah bye

Regardless of our disagreements and not to be the Flight Info grammar police, but it does make it even harder to take someone seriously whose grammatical errors wouldn't allow them to graduate high school, let alone possess an ATP and fly airplanes for a living. Just an observation.

Now to the content of your reply. I'll take your bet that DW is still here in six months. Who do you suppose that he'll replace her with? Regardless of he would choose, you'd be on here every single day trashing whoever that individual is. There's no pleasing you. I'll also bet you that Flexjet isn't dead, either. Why on earth would investors put $5 billion into something that would no longer be? All that money is invested into Flexjet, not FLOPs. I agree with you that Ricci is ultimately running the show but that doesn't mean he doesn't answer to the investors. All this bickering because we want nothing to do with the 1108 and because we show an ounce of faith in our leadership.

 

[chief9404]

I tried to find a slide or recording of someone saying this but could not find it, although I'm under the same impression. Above all else the Flexjet pilots do not want to merge, there is more for us to lose. Options has furloughs, lower pay/benefits, older airplanes, more senior by DOH... Forget the union for a second, there is not much to gain by the average flex pilot if we merge. More so if you are an options pilots (upgrades into out cushy challengers with fancy carpet). So, it's being sold to us that a no vote to representation will mean we can stay separate. Tempting to say the least. The question is, do we believe that we would stay separate? I don't know at this point. When it gets closer to a vote a lot of questions will have to be asked and answered

Kenn told us recently we would be able to cross bid. Since Kenn is the boss I intend on bidding a capt position in one of your 605's by the end of the year. If not, maybe one of the CL300's being painted in Flops colors.

 

[993_Pilot]

Kenn told us recently we would be able to cross bid. Since Kenn is the boss I intend on bidding a capt position in one of your 605's by the end of the year. If not, maybe one of the CL300's being painted in Flops colors.

I bet you're the idiot that went up on to the flight deck of a Flexjet airplane and told them as much. What a tool.

 

[chief9404]

I bet you're the idiot that went up on to the flight deck of a Flexjet airplane and told them as much. What a tool.

Kenn allowed cross bidding for the Travel Air/Flops merge. Are you that naive it's going to be different this time? Bombardier is gone guys. Kenn's the new sheriff in town.