New Emirates order....

[KarmaPolice]

http://www.seattlepi.com/business/boeing/article/Report-Emirates-negotiating-record-Boeing-order-4932693.php



Emirates airline is "in advanced negotiations" with Boeing on what could be a record-breaking order, The Financial Times reported Sunday.

Specifically, Emirates is looking ordering 100 to 175 777X airliners, becoming the launch customer for the revamped version of Boeing's large, two-engine jet, according to the story. The order could top $30 billion at list prices, although customers routinely get substantial discounts.

Boeing's current record order is Lion Air's deal to buy 230 737s, worth $22.4 billion at list prices.

Emirates is the largest 777 customer in the world, with 139 ordered, including 61 yet to be delivered. That's nearly twice as much as second-place Singapore Airlines, which has ordered 73 777s.

Emirates also is looking into buying more Airbus wide-body aircraft, including super-jumbo A380s and composite A350s, The Financial Times reported.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Legacy carriers' service needs to evolve to face what will be the biggest challenge to the business model over the next ten years. But how much can we do when our IFS teams are traditionally associated with words like: frumpy, overweight, lazy, rude, uncaring, old, tired, and entitled?

I don't know how it is at United and AMR, but I know where I'm at, once Emirates figures a way to compete with our Frequent flier program, exploits 5th freedom rights, and leverages its competitive advantage via UAE support, we are going to get pushed out of route after route. How easy will it be to start connecting random city pairs between Europe and the USA, kind of like a global SWA point to point?

Both EU and especially US Governments have proven they have no interest in protecting domestic corporations from global competition.

The only way to survive is going to be to try and compete head on, and if my customers' experience via our IFS team today was any indicator, we are screwed.

 

[8sugarsugar]

The only way to survive is to join them. JetBlue, Alaska and most recently Virgin America have all inked deals with Emirates for US domestic.

Not screwed, but in 10 years most of the widebody flying by "brand name majors" will be disappearing.

Its eerie to be sitting in Dubai on an Emirates 380 bound for JFK and hear a sultry female russian accent say, "welcome to this Emirates flight 203 in association with JetBlue"

 

[cbrown1]

It's funny, Emirates has airplane orders larger than most airlines' entire fleets.

Does anyone else think it's silly the DOJ is pitching a fit because AA and US want to merge but it's ok for a State-run and State-owned airline that has unlimited funds to saturate the market?

 

[enuffalready]

It's funny, Emirates has airplane orders larger than most airlines' entire fleets.

Does anyone else think it's silly the DOJ is pitching a fit because AA and US want to merge but it's ok for a State-run and State-owned airline that has unlimited funds to saturate the market?

Nobody in Dubai votes in congressional races.

 

[Kharma Police]

Nobody in Dubai votes in congressional races.

True, but they have something better, lobbyists.

 

[General Lee]

Legacy carriers' service needs to evolve to face what will be the biggest challenge to the business model over the next ten years. But how much can we do when our IFS teams are traditionally associated with words like: frumpy, overweight, lazy, rude, uncaring, old, tired, and entitled?

I don't know how it is at United and AMR, but I know where I'm at, once Emirates figures a way to compete with our Frequent flier program, exploits 5th freedom rights, and leverages its competitive advantage via UAE support, we are going to get pushed out of route after route. How easy will it be to start connecting random city pairs between Europe and the USA, kind of like a global SWA point to point?

Both EU and especially US Governments have proven they have no interest in protecting domestic corporations from global competition.

The only way to survive is going to be to try and compete head on, and if my customers' experience via our IFS team today was any indicator, we are screwed.

No, that isn't entirely correct. First, there is a space problem, meaning gate space. Not enough extra space to bump US carriers out of route after route. Then there is a landing slot problem. Then there is the fact that people from the US won't fly to Dubai first, then backtrack to Europe or even Asia. Too far.

The Europeans, Australians, and some Asia carriers (like SQ) are having problems, primarily because the Gulf cities like Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and Doha are in a straight line towards Europe, SE Asia, and Australia. Several European countries like Germany, France, and Austria have imposed limits on EK and more will join them if their own national airlines complain more. The problem with the other countries in Europe is that many of the national airlines are failing financally, and the Gulf carriers are willing to put up some money to buy influence it seems. (But not the biggies like Germany and France). Even Canada limits Gulf carriers to 3 flights per week, with only one city each in Canada. They see the big picture. Etihad has a codeshare with AC though, but it's a flow of pax through London Heathrow.

Will EK and the like affect US carriers in the US? So far, not really. EK will add a route to Milan from JFK and probably abandon it soon after thanks to 4 other carriers (DL, UA, AA, and AZ) doing it too. EK does have a codeshare with JB now that can allow pax to flow into the US, but in JFK the terminals are different, and BOS is the same, no direct access to connections. I guess it's better than nothing....

Will EK and others cherry pick key US routes to key INTL cities? They will try, and it all depends on how the US legacies defend their hubs and how full the airports are. Foreign Gov'ts also don't want extra competition for their own national airlines on those routes. Hopefully EK isn't using the EXIM bank subsidies anymore too. That was disgraceful. That money was for poor nations.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

The only way to survive is to join them. JetBlue, Alaska and most recently Virgin America have all inked deals with Emirates for US domestic.

Not screwed, but in 10 years most of the widebody flying by "brand name majors" will be disappearing.

Its eerie to be sitting in Dubai on an Emirates 380 bound for JFK and hear a sultry female russian accent say, "welcome to this Emirates flight 203 in association with JetBlue"

Then they get off in JFK and have to go though customs, and then get their bags and find their way to the JB terminal.... They might try it once.... Same in BOS.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[8sugarsugar]

To waste my valuable time correcting General Lee......

http://www.exim.gov/about/whoweare/ no where does it say the Export/Import bank is only for poor nations. Plus, only 12% of all aircraft owned by Emirates were financed through the ExIm Bank

http://cdn.ek.aero/english/images/airlines and subsidy - our position new_tcm233-845771.pdf

Loads on JFK-MXP are already oversold just after 30 days of service. Good for job security, bad for staff travel.

All international arrivals are never easy...customs, rechecking your bag, moving terminals.

Maybe you are hinting at the next deal struck? JFK, Terminal 4, future customs pre-clearance in Dubai, Delta/Emirates marriage sounds like a match made in heaven.

The first US major that strikes a deal with Emirates similar to Qantas will reap handsome rewards. Fighting the 5th freedom push will only result in a slow death of wide body international operated by the Majors.

No one here admits that traveling on Delta/United is a pleasant experience. It sucks, it sucks really bad. Many have no choice because you are right for now, they won't travel to Dubai, then reverse to Europe.

But....Expect more 5th freedom Euro/US flights operated by Emirates in the future for the exact reason stated above.

 

[General Lee]

To waste my valuable time correcting General Lee......

http://www.exim.gov/about/whoweare/ no where does it say the Export/Import bank is only for poor nations. Plus, only 12% of all aircraft owned by Emirates were financed through the ExIm Bank

http://cdn.ek.aero/english/images/airlines and subsidy - our position new_tcm233-845771.pdf

Loads on JFK-MXP are already oversold just after 30 days of service. Good for job security, bad for staff travel.

All international arrivals are never easy...customs, rechecking your bag, moving terminals.

Maybe you are hinting at the next deal struck? JFK, Terminal 4, future customs pre-clearance in Dubai, Delta/Emirates marriage sounds like a match made in heaven.

The first US major that strikes a deal with Emirates similar to Qantas will reap handsome rewards. Fighting the 5th freedom push will only result in a slow death of wide body international operated by the Majors.

No one here admits that traveling on Delta/United is a pleasant experience. It sucks, it sucks really bad. Many have no choice because you are right for now, they won't travel to Dubai, then reverse to Europe.

But....Expect more 5th freedom Euro/US flights operated by Emirates in the future for the exact reason stated above.

Nah, you're wrong. Not enough gate space or slots at large US airports to fulfill your grandiose dreams. Your pax have a lot more work to do connecting to JB rather than staying on one airline. When was the last time YOU did it? Riiiiiiight.

And DL and ALPA both brought up your airline's misuse of the EXIM Bank, and WON a legal ruling to make sure the bank publicly states what deals they make, which hopefully will curtail it.

Great news about the loads on your MXP to JFK flight. How about future Birmingham to BOS? Whaaaaaaat? How about Southampton to Des Moines? Talk about a waste of time.

One great thing about pilot group scope clauses at certain legacy airlines, is the ability to approve or disapprove of Joint Venture partners. The JV you have with Qantas is very unlikely in the States. It just won't float, and the primary pilot union, ALPA, continually warns against the Gulf Carriers. Ummmm, unlikely. Alliances? Probably. QR just joined Oneworld, right? A JV like the one with Qantas? Very doubtful.

Also, congrats on the profits on those new MXP to JFK flights. That must mean huge profit sharing checks for you. DL made $1.37 Billion this last quarter, which throws in a huge chunk into the profit sharing pool. So, how much did you get last year or this year? Have a great one! Put on the sunscreen.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[8sugarsugar]

yep, i'm wrong just like the JFK-MXP flight that you claimed would NEVER EVER happen. ALPA, politicians would stop it dead.

sorry general, as time passes you continue to be proved wrong.

 

[Varmint]

No, that isn't entirely correct. First, there is a space problem, meaning gate space. Not enough extra space to bump US carriers out of route after route. Then there is a landing slot problem. Then there is the fact that people from the US won't fly to Dubai first, then backtrack to Europe or even Asia. Too far.

The Europeans, Australians, and some Asia carriers (like SQ) are having problems, primarily because the Gulf cities like Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and Doha are in a straight line towards Europe, SE Asia, and Australia. Several European countries like Germany, France, and Austria have imposed limits on EK and more will join them if their own national airlines complain more. The problem with the other countries in Europe is that many of the national airlines are failing financally, and the Gulf carriers are willing to put up some money to buy influence it seems. (But not the biggies like Germany and France). Even Canada limits Gulf carriers to 3 flights per week, with only one city each in Canada. They see the big picture. Etihad has a codeshare with AC though, but it's a flow of pax through London Heathrow.

Will EK and the like affect US carriers in the US? So far, not really. EK will add a route to Milan from JFK and probably abandon it soon after thanks to 4 other carriers (DL, UA, AA, and AZ) doing it too. EK does have a codeshare with JB now that can allow pax to flow into the US, but in JFK the terminals are different, and BOS is the same, no direct access to connections. I guess it's better than nothing....

Will EK and others cherry pick key US routes to key INTL cities? They will try, and it all depends on how the US legacies defend their hubs and how full the airports are. Foreign Gov'ts also don't want extra competition for their own national airlines on those routes. Hopefully EK isn't using the EXIM bank subsidies anymore too. That was disgraceful. That money was for poor nations.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You are not correct.

Karma has it right. You have it wrong with your normal over-emotional and dramatic banter. Keep the blinders on.

 

[Flopgut]

To waste my valuable time correcting General Lee......

http://www.exim.gov/about/whoweare/ no where does it say the Export/Import bank is only for poor nations. Plus, only 12% of all aircraft owned by Emirates were financed through the ExIm Bank.

Only 12%!? Only?!

Since things are so great over there and your expat opinion is so valuable to Dubai, make some arrangement for 12% of US legacy aircraft to be financed similarly by Dubai, ok?

Only 12%... GMAFB

 

[8sugarsugar]

well, most the US legacy aircraft (regionals) are financed by Canada and Brazil banks. To each his own. I bet those Canadians and Brazilians are upset too...... <*sarcasm*

"gosh darn it, it so SOOOOO un-american that you work for a company that buys American." says the average xenophobe.

The ex/im bank is doing exactly what it is supposed to do, make US products more attractive to export....what a novel idea.. On top of it, Emirates pays back the US Government interest on money it borrowed. As opposed to borrowing money from Europe or China?

what would you suggest? Would you be happy if Emirates dumped the $30billion Boeing order and switched to Airbus?

 

[Flopgut]

well, most the US legacy aircraft (regionals) are financed by Canada and Brazil banks. To each his own. I bet those Canadians and Brazilians are upset too...... <*sarcasm*

"gosh darn it, it so SOOOOO un-american that you work for a company that buys American." says the average xenophobe.

The ex/im bank is doing exactly what it is supposed to do, make US products more attractive to export....what a novel idea.. On top of it, Emirates pays back the US Government interest on money it borrowed. As opposed to borrowing money from Europe or China?

what would you suggest? Would you be happy if Emirates dumped the $30billion Boeing order and switched to Airbus?

I want to see US legacies get the same loan *terms*. I think we deserve some real cheap money. AND, another huge issue that I believe got swept under the rug, the ATSB denied a loan to UAL after 9-11. I don't believe it should be above scrutiny that after a group of Middle Eastern decent terrorists rain down hell on this Country with airliners, another group of Middle Eastern decent businessmen take over the airline business.

I've been apprehensive to make that assertion; I think many of us have. But it's time to speak the truth and ask some serious questions.

 

[sniper]

yep, i'm wrong just like the JFK-MXP flight that you claimed would NEVER EVER happen. ALPA, politicians would stop it dead.

sorry general, as time passes you continue to be proved wrong.

Just like your Hamburg flight, MXP flight will be history soon




p.s
Dont bother applying at Delta

 

[8sugarsugar]

I'll take the higher road, Sniper you are more than welcome to interview here the next time Delta furloughs...if u need the job

 

[flyboyike]

Will EK and the like affect US carriers in the US? So far, not really...

The key words being "so far", General. There was a time when "so far" Toyota didn't do anything to GM either.

 

[sniper]

I'll take the higher road, Sniper you are more than welcome to interview here the next time Delta furloughs...if u need the job

No need but thank you..

4800 need to be gone first

enjoy the ME

ps
you can always apply for an RJ positionwith the regionals, after all you have plenty experience fom your previous job

 

[Green]

Why are you so mad at EK and expat pilots Sniper? General Lee just craves attention and jealousy from his peers yet you seem to have a real hard on for Americans who chose to work overseas.

Your anger should be directed at your mgt team and board of directors who f#cked you out of your pension and gave you a decade long pay cut. You might have been sharing a cockpit at your former job with one of us but now you wish us all the worst because we took a job in a foreign country? Amazing that someone as xenophobic as you would ever choose to be an airline pilot. Maybe you should go back to being a sniper (assuming you did that at some point). Seems to suit your nature.

 

[General Lee]

Why are you so mad at EK and expat pilots Sniper? General Lee just craves attention and jealousy from his peers yet you seem to have a real hard on for Americans who chose to work overseas.

Your anger should be directed at your mgt team and board of directors who f#cked you out of your pension and gave you a decade long pay cut. You might have been sharing a cockpit at your former job with one of us but now you wish us all the worst because we took a job in a foreign country? Amazing that someone as xenophobic as you would ever choose to be an airline pilot. Maybe you should go back to being a sniper (assuming you did that at some point). Seems to suit your nature.

Uh, say what? I "crave" jealousy from my peers? I give an opinion that you and a few others disagree with, and you guys get so defensive. Things at EK aren't as rosy as you and the others portray, and I have a buddy on the 777 there that tells me about it. Arbitrary profit sharing, monthly bids that are screwed up, allnight turns to India, and others. Sure, all airlines have some problems, but you literally have no say in what goes on there. No control on your bidding (may or may not get what you want, with no reason given). Your airline has big profits, and you may not get a dime (I had a $8K profit sharing check last year---on Valentine's day too). I don't have to do two man crew India or Pakistan turns. And a bunch of the expats are leaving--- for US and European airlines too. As British Airways starts hiring again, tons of your guys (many Ex-Ryanair) will want to leave the Sandpit for the chance to go back towards family. Same with US Expats. Am I making that up? And how many married US Pilots and their families in the Sandpit wouldn't jump for the chance to come back to the States and get hired at one of the big 3 legacies? If you're single, maybe not, but married people with family back here? I'd say a bunch. So, don't get so defensive, I'm not, I just state reality.

And read from my signature at the bottom the direct quote from TP about starting over at DL if he could. He's been at your airline a lot longer than you have. Was he lying?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

http://m.us.wsj.com/article_email/S...2219208604-lMyQjAxMTAzMDMwMDEzNDAyWj?mobile=y

Emirates President Tim Clark said it is "laughable" for U.S. carriers to complain about subsidies after slashing costs and debts through bankruptcy reorganization, as did Delta, United and, most recently, American. U.S. complaints are "all pretty insipid," he said. "It would be best if they put their own house in order and put themselves on a competitive footing."

Put our "house" in order? Interesting. I'm pretty sure in 2001 when UAL was a DOW component and $130 stock, the house was in order. Emirates is growing as fast as it can because they know US airlines will get their "house in order".

The US has the most sophisticated military, a space program, dominates world air cargo, and builds the worlds best aircraft. But somehow we pretend that major airlines are something we struggle at? Really, or do we just hamstring them by over regulation, lack of support, lack of advocating them? Seriously, is there a more neglected industry in our Country?

 

[General Lee]

http://m.us.wsj.com/article_email/S...2219208604-lMyQjAxMTAzMDMwMDEzNDAyWj?mobile=y

Emirates President Tim Clark said it is "laughable" for U.S. carriers to complain about subsidies after slashing costs and debts through bankruptcy reorganization, as did Delta, United and, most recently, American. U.S. complaints are "all pretty insipid," he said. "It would be best if they put their own house in order and put themselves on a competitive footing."

Put our "house" in order? Interesting. I'm pretty sure in 2001 when UAL was a DOW component and $130 stock, the house was in order. Emirates is growing as fast as it can because they know US airlines will get their "house in order".

Agreed. Consolidation is a good thing for US Airlines to fight these so called "State backed" airlines. In that article, the US airline CEOs want a few things from our Govt to level the playing field----fewer or less taxes on our tickets being a huge one. Next, actual help or backing us when it comes to negotiating for bilaterals or slots. Some Foreign Govts get behind their airlines and fight for them (some back their aircraft loans). Why can't that happen here?(the negotiating part) Maybe the next President will help more. RA and Smisek get it, though....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Green]

General,

Admit it dude. You want to be the biggest dog in town. That's patently obvious to those on the outside. You spend an ungodly amount of energy sifting through the net trying to find ways to discredit other airlines and prove Delta is the best. Do you stop to sign autographs in the parking lot after your European trips? Tell the kids about all the hot "stews" and the ice cream sundays at FL350?

Yes Typhoon pilot wanted a job back in the states. I bet he had his fun, has a nice sum of cash in the bank, and is ready to go home. He probably can't just up and retire so why not take a job with Delta for the medical insurance, paycheck, etc. But I bet you his financial security is pretty solid. I imagine he has some pretty great stories to tell his grandkids about flying all over the world. Not just back and forth on the NAT tracks in a clapped out old 767. And he got to enjoy being a 777 captain in his 40's, maybe even 30's. Spending 40 years at one company is not necessarily the most fulfilling path to take in life.

 

[Flopgut]

Agreed. Consolidation is a good thing for US Airlines to fight these so called "State backed" airlines. In that article, the CEOs want a few things from our Govt to level the playing field----fewer or less taxes on our tickets being a huge one. Next, actual help or backing us when it comes to negotiating for bilaterals or slots. Some Foreign Govts get behind their airlines and fight for them (some back their aircraft loans). Why can't that happen here? Maybe the next President will help more. RA and Smisek get it, though....


Bye Bye---General Lee

Jeff needs to stay as close as possible to RA's talking points. When RA talks, Congress certainly listens. So when he describes these three (Emirates, Ethiad and Qatar) as "governments" and not "airlines" it will start to register with our leaders.

 

[General Lee]

General,

Admit it dude. You want to be the biggest dog in town. That's patently obvious to those on the outside. You spend an ungodly amount of energy sifting through the net trying to find ways to discredit other airlines and prove Delta is the best. Do you stop to sign autographs in the parking lot after your European trips? Tell the kids about all the hot "stews" and the ice cream sundays at FL350?

Yes Typhoon pilot wanted a job back in the states. I bet he had his fun, has a nice sum of cash in the bank, and is ready to go home. He probably can't just up and retire so why not take a job with Delta for the medical insurance, paycheck, etc. But I bet you his financial security is pretty solid. I imagine he has some pretty great stories to tell his grandkids about flying all over the world. Not just back and forth on the NAT tracks in a clapped out old 767. And he got to enjoy being a 777 captain in his 40's, maybe even 30's. Spending 40 years at one company is not necessarily the most fulfilling path to take in life.

Admit it? Admit that I love my job? Sure. Do I think I work for a great company? Sure. I also give my own opinions about things I know. I know that the big 3 legacies are all going to experience tons of retirements and upward movement is going to be great. Pay rates have come up from BK days, and the DC funds have replaced uncertain pensions. TP and others see this, and the complaining I hear and read about Gulf Carrier conditions seems pretty accurate. Why anyone wouldn't want to bail out (even from a 777 Capt seat like TP did) and get on with ANY of the big 3 is beyond me. This board has plenty of prospective newhires looking at all the options, and they should be able to read about what may or may not happen in their future companies. Flying an A380 in two years may be awesome, but how do the rest of the family feel while the pilot is globetrotting and they are left in the desert? Being single may be a lot different, but being married may be really tough. And dealing with the local laws and what about needing permission from a certain CEO of another ME airline to get married to one of their FAs? Really? Permission?

Any big airline in the States sounds better than that. I'm just repeating what I hear and read. Feel free to dispute any of that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[NEDude]

Overseas carriers see Chapter 11 of the U.S. bankruptcy code as a very unfair form of state aid that is not available to them. In most developed western countries airlines (and other corporations) either make money or they cease to exist. No declaring bankruptcy, operating for years, all while escaping debt and union contracts. Don't be fooled into thinking we don't have some very favorable forms of state aid in the United States that are not available to carriers of other nations.

 

[General Lee]

Overseas carriers see Chapter 11 of the U.S. bankruptcy code as a very unfair form of state aid that is not available to them. In most developed western countries airlines (and other corporations) either make money or they cease to exist. No declaring bankruptcy, operating for years, all while escaping debt and union contracts. Don't be fooled into thinking we don't have some very favorable forms of state aid in the United States that are not available to carriers of other nations.

How about Europe? State Aid almost always pulls European Airlines from the brink, and then their unions strike, and make it worse. Check out Alitalia right now. They are begging AF/KL for help, but it may not come without major restructuring and job loss. AF announced additional job cuts on top of the 5100 or so announced before. But, there is a difference when an airline in the ME can order 100 A380s. Uh, who is backing that loan? Who can possibly afford that PLUS 100 new 777s? The US Govt doesn't help airlines prior to BK, they let them fall into it and then the process works. It sucks, and people get pay cuts and pensions lost, but there is still debt there. DL had $19 billion in debt in 2008(?), and it is now down to $10 Billion, with the new target now being $7 billion within the next year or so. BK doesn't get rid of ALL debts obviously, and the credit rating takes a big hit. Some State run or State backed Airlines will never have to see that. US airlines are probably the highest taxed too. How much of a ticket goes to the GOVT? I'm sure it's like that in Europe too.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sniper]

Why are you so mad at EK and expat pilots Sniper? General Lee just craves attention and jealousy from his peers yet you seem to have a real hard on for Americans who chose to work overseas.

Your anger should be directed at your mgt team and board of directors who f#cked you out of your pension and gave you a decade long pay cut. You might have been sharing a cockpit at your former job with one of us but now you wish us all the worst because we took a job in a foreign country? Amazing that someone as xenophobic as you would ever choose to be an airline pilot. Maybe you should go back to being a sniper (assuming you did that at some point). Seems to suit your nature.

not angry but i protect my job in the US by all foreign threats

not xenophobic at all.

Just against the 3 at UAE

 

[Green]

Which 3 UAE carriers are you against?